There's no need for a link Josh. Myself and Gentlefoot had exactly the same conversation as you are today with him.

Top and bottom is that Gentlefoot wants to gain kudos from beating FO8s. This will never be on pace but because the FO8 is driven very poorly or they have extreme bad luck. I too do not agree on the whole points system being drawn up for the benefit of one particular situation which is only of interest to one driver (albeit that driver is the series creator), when it creates flaws and anomalies that are suffered by the rest of the field.

However, it is Gentlefoot's series. He can run it how he wishes and take the opinions of everyone or no one when he takes decisions. If we don't like it then we don't have to participate. I don't like it but I will participate

Quote from Gentlefoot :

As I said before - racing is not just about lap time.

You are far more likely to have a big accident in an FO8 than a FOX. They require much more throttle control and this means concentration becomes even more important (especially over 75 mins). For this reason I am confident that I will continue to beat FO8s as the season goes on.

Well it doesn't look like I can possibly make any difference here, so I will try not to post again on the subject. However, I don't see how it's worth sacrificing the chance to compete properly with the rest of your own class just so you might be able to compete with 1 or 2 FO8s. It really doesn't make any sense. The Formula V8 is over 10% faster than the Formula XR in all of the tracks you are racing in the GFC. In a 75 minute race that is over 7.5 minutes... the driving will have to be immensely poor for Formula XRs to regularly compete with Formula V8s.

Would it at least be possible to have an overall championship, using the current points distribution, and seperate championships using a sensible system? That way being the last Formula V8 isn't worth half as many points as being the first Formula V8, and there is actually some benefit in trying to win your own class, whereas at the moment your position makes virtually no difference.

As someone who's interested in racing the league with a fox, i have to say that the points system doesn't exactly seem to reward being quick. Only getting 1p more for a win than for second place doesn't make me want to spend a lot of time practicing for the race ( for the tracks i'm unfamiliar with ), if I can get away with only losing a couple of points by finishing e.g. 4th instead of seriously going for the win. It's good you can drop results from your two weakest races, but i still feel that the championship might be decided more by disconnects and absence than actual racing. Also, such small point differences will encourage passive driving, as in, not risking your position by attempting to overtake etc.

Sorry to be complaining the first thing after registering

EDIT: You could still have an overall championship status by using, for example, a multiplier like 0.5 for all the fox points, and compare them to FO8 like that. Results should be rather similar, and you can still beat FO8 drivers in individual races as well as the combined championship

Quote from joshdifabio :

The Formula XR still takes 11% longer to complete a lap than the Formula V8 at SO Long. If you do beat anyone they will have to have awful race, I don't understand how this can possibly be worth scrapping a fair points system for. Can you give me a link to this discussion that you had about the points system? Maybe there is a good reason for the current system which I have missed, but I can't really imagine that there is.

I might review it at the end of the season. If I have to split it out it'll mean more work for me too which at the moment isn't helpful.

Quote from .deFINe. :

As someone who's interested in racing the league with a fox, i have to say that the points system doesn't exactly seem to reward being quick. Only getting 1p more for a win than for second place doesn't make me want to spend a lot of time practicing for the race ( for the tracks i'm unfamiliar with ), if I can get away with only losing a couple of points by finishing e.g. 4th instead of seriously going for the win. It's good you can drop results from your two weakest races, but i still feel that the championship might be decided more by disconnects and absence than actual racing. Also, such small point differences will encourage passive driving, as in, not risking your position by attempting to overtake etc.

Sorry to be complaining the first thing after registering

EDIT: You could still have an overall championship status by using, for example, a multiplier like 0.5 for all the fox points, and compare them to FO8 like that. Results should be rather similar, and you can still beat FO8 drivers in individual races as well as the combined championship

Hey josh, are you entering this event BTW? FOX or F08? :P Wanna have some racings with you ..haha

There's now only 1 guaranteed slot left for race 1. I will accept up to 10 reserves as there are usually several no shows. 7 failed to turn up last time from an entry list of 26. This grid will have 32 cars on it so I expect at least as many no shows as at FE Club.

Quote from keithano :

Hey josh, are you entering this event BTW? FOX or F08? :P Wanna have some racings with you ..haha

Me, Misan and FiredUp are racing the FO8, .deFINe. is racing the FOX .

Quote from joshdifabio :

Me, Misan and FiredUp are racing the FO8, .deFINe. is racing the FOX .

aww.. .deFINe. is racing for FOX... that means i am guaranteed that I can't get the championship. Anyway, I am missing the first and second round due to final exams Good luck , guys!

I have just made a rule change for the GFC. Rule 3.1 regarding yellow flags has been amended. No passing is allowed under yellows. See http://www.gentlefoot.com/LFS/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107 for the discussion that led to this change. See http://www.gentlefoot.com/LFS/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26 to read the rules.

I have mass emailed all members to ensure everyone is aware of this change.

GF

FWIW, I really like the points system.

It gives equal chance to beginners willing to put the commitment in, as faster drivers who mightn't turn up for every event.

I think GF should be praised for having the kudos to try something a bit different. It might not work but as he says it can be reviewed at the end of the season.

A league isn't just about pace but commitment and stamina!

Quote from nigelpm :

FWIW, I really like the points system.

It gives equal chance to beginners willing to put the commitment in, as faster drivers who mightn't turn up for every event.

I think GF should be praised for having the kudos to try something a bit different. It might not work but as he says it can be reviewed at the end of the season.

A league isn't just about pace but commitment and stamina!

Thanks Nigel - a fellow FOX driver who likes the current system

The other interesting affect of this system is that if you are in a FOX and you do manage to win your class and get in front of an FO8 or two you get a bigger points advantage over the second place FOX.

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who visited the server last night. The standard of driving was excellent for a public server even when we had 20 cars on the grid. FO8 drivers, even randoms, were very well behaved and FOXs and FO8s could enjoy the racing equally.

I had the best fun I've had on a public server in a very long time. I felt really proud that we've achieved something a bit different from all the other servers.

unghh,

Check your inbox.

+1 enjoyed last night Gentle the racing was alot better than when patch X first came out

See you tonight time permitting

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who visited the server last night. The standard of driving was excellent for a public server even when we had 20 cars on the grid. FO8 drivers, even randoms, were very well behaved and FOXs and FO8s could enjoy the racing equally.

I had the best fun I've had on a public server in a very long time. I felt really proud that we've achieved something a bit different from all the other servers.

Hey GF.

Yes, i have to agree that this format is unusual but also fun... for instance the ZWR guys are regulalry leaving the pits late, but still can have fun with the chase up through the field to try and pass the FOX's but also more importantly 'safely'

There is obviously a learning curve to be had and although the responsability of the over taking of the FOX's is purely the FO8's responsability i do feel the need to just say a few words about the standard of some FOX drivers race craft..

(your's is excellent btw) and i trust you completely by the way that you will stick to your line and allow me to go around you, the problem is the guys who say just before the final hairpin at Aston will stay tight on the right hand curve before so you go to pass/sweep around on the left, then they straight line the left hand kink only to either take you out or push you on the grass.

it's only a few people, however i know you get this in pickup races, i was wondering if you could make something that went along the lines of 'holding your line' a little clearer meaning that 2 cars can comfortably go side by side for most of the lap, its just i swear some people are in a word of their own or have an MP3 player going or have no mirrors on there setups

This little annoyance does not take away how refreshing this server/combo/championship will be

Regards Dru.

Quote from CELTIC100 :

+1 enjoyed last night Gentle the racing was alot better than when patch X first came out

See you tonight time permitting

Hey Celtic, please would you mind reading my above post as unfortunately you were one of them i'm afraid

The FOXs really don't cause too many problems in my view. FO8s are taking a risk by passing them in any corner. A risk which I view as unnesesary because they have the power to blast past at the next straight instead.

If an FO8 follows a FOX into the final chicane and the FOX is on the right hand side ready to turn in, then the FO8 should only make a pass there if they can get fully past before the 1st apex on the left kerb. The FOXs only have one line throught that corner. They can't be expected to delay their turn in to let an FO8 past because they simply won't make it through the chicane without virtually stopping.

In addition, if you are in an FO8 and you have a FOX in front of you then either you are incredibly slow, you started the race late, or you are recovering from an accident. For this reason the FOX deserves the utmost respect from you. They are ahead of you on the track and they only have half the power you have!

In addition, sometimes FO8s come up on FOXs so fast that they don't see them coming. FO8s should remember this. I nearly turned in on one cos I just didn't know he was there.

FOXs should be reminded that they should make it easy for FO8s to pass too. It's up to you whether you leave the door open for the FO8s at corner entry. FO8s remember that a FOX at a normal turn in point may look to you like they are leaving the door open but they may not be. If you go for the pass you may find them shut the door because they were expecting you to wait for the straight.

At the end of the day we have to almost read it others minds. That is why this form of racing is so challenging and satisfying.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

The FOXs really don't cause too many problems in my view. FO8s are taking a risk by passing them in any corner. A risk which I view as unnesesary because they have the power to blast past at the next straight instead.

If an FO8 follows a FOX into the final chicane and the FOX is on the right hand side ready to turn in, then the FO8 should only make a pass there if they can get fully past before the 1st apex on the left kerb. The FOXs only have one line throught that corner. They can't be expected to delay their turn in to let an FO8 past because they simply won't make it through the chicane without virtually stopping.

In addition, if you are in an FO8 and you have a FOX in front of you then either you are incredibly slow, you started the race late, or you are recovering from an accident. For this reason the FOX deserves the utmost respect from you. They are ahead of you on the track and they only have half the power you have!

In addition, sometimes FO8s come up on FOXs so fast that they don't see them coming. FO8s should remember this. I nearly turned in on one cos I just didn't know he was there.

FOXs should be reminded that they should make it easy for FO8s to pass too. It's up to you whether you leave the door open for the FO8s at corner entry. FO8s remember that a FOX at a normal turn in point may look to you like they are leaving the door open but they may not be. If you go for the pass you may find them shut the door because they were expecting you to wait for the straight.

At the end of the day we have to almost read it others minds. That is why this form of racing is so challenging and satisfying.

LOL

you are a talented man if you can read someones mind GF, thats what my point was about, certain people you can trust, others you can not......yet.

maybe it will take 2-3 races to actually know which cars you can pass safely and others you need to take 'additional' care with..

like i said in the post, the main problem i have is coming up to a fox, slowing down to along side them to pass them 'safely' and they just don't give a cars width to go through.

Like i said i could understnd if if i was on full powerand came up and tried to pass without lifting when the car in front is commited to a corner, but since that i was lifting to the same pace as the FOX and making a geniune 'pass' meaning alongside, i still feel that at least a car's width should be left....

but heck not everyones race craft is up there yet... like i mentioned hopefully after a few rounds the situation will be completely gone

Quote from Dru :

LOL

you are a talented man if you can read someones mind GF, thats what my point was about, certain people you can trust, others you can not......yet.

maybe it will take 2-3 races to actually know which cars you can pass safely and others you need to take 'additional' care with..

like i said in the post, the main problem i have is coming up to a fox, slowing down to along side them to pass them 'safely' and they just don't give a cars width to go through.

Like i said i could understnd if if i was on full powerand came up and tried to pass without lifting when the car in front is commited to a corner, but since that i was lifting to the same pace as the FOX and making a geniune 'pass' meaning alongside, i still feel that at least a car's width should be left....

but heck not everyones race craft is up there yet... like i mentioned hopefully after a few rounds the situation will be completely gone

The judicial process will make all things become clear in time. Soon we will have a set of case law to refer to. At the moment it is hard to discuss such things because there are such a variety of situations.

I think it may be helpful to refer to these rules at this point.

2.1 Always avoid contact with another driver and give him room. Never move off the racing line if it will result in contact.
2.2 If you attempt a pass on another driver, give him opportunity to see you coming and ensure you have adequate overlap.
2.3 If a driver attempts a pass on you and has sufficient overlap you must leave space for them at the apex.

The above rules apply to both FOXs and FO8s so if a FOX turns in on you and doesn't leave space at the apex when you have sufficient overlap then the FOX is at fault.

If the FO8 fails to stay tight to the apex and contact is made then it would be the FO8s fault. See http://www.gentlefoot.com/LFS/gfcjudicialvideo.html - the example entitled Lap 82 Celtic100, The End is a perfect example of this.

Specific Rules For FO8s

2.11 Making contact with a FOX while passing or lapping is absolutely unacceptable and will be met with stiff penalties.

Specific Rules For FOXs

2.12 Making any attempt to block the path of a lapping FO8 is absolutely unacceptable and will be met with stiff penalties.

These words have been chosen carefully so please, read these rules carefully too.

Nice judicial videos! Every well known league should do that
You really take a lot of effort there!

....my incident was lag, like I proved

Quote from Nobo :

Nice judicial videos! Every well known league should do that
You really take a lot of effort there!

Cheers mate. Maybe you will join us sometime

Quote from Nobo :

Nice judicial videos! Every well known league should do that
You really take a lot of effort there!

Agree +1

Prior to the race, during preperations, I think it'd be nice if you announced which sections of the track were decidedly dangerous to pass in. Not outright ban passing in them, but just a little reminder, ye know like, "passing in the following corners should be done with utmost care, as they are certainly not the most ideal points to do so...".

I saw far too many people passing seconds before, or INTO the first and last chicanes while I was racing the other night. Got REALLY irritating.

Quote from sinkoman :

Prior to the race, during preperations, I think it'd be nice if you announced which sections of the track were decidedly dangerous to pass in. Not outright ban passing in them, but just a little reminder, ye know like, "passing in the following corners should be done with utmost care, as they are certainly not the most ideal points to do so...".

I saw far too many people passing seconds before, or INTO the first and last chicanes while I was racing the other night. Got REALLY irritating.

good idea,

however, i'm guessing that you are talking about people overtaking you in your 'braking zone' before sweeping into the chicanes rights?