Forgive me if it has come up already, but I don't think so...

I think the choice of the tire brand should be a player option, not a setup option... I know, it doesn't make much of a difference now, as the differences are only visual, but think of the future: Everyone would take the same setup, which uses the tire that suits the track the most... So why adding complexity when it won't be used sufficiently (exactly the reason engine tuning was shot down every time)? Also, think of RL: teams (which would be us basically, as we are one-man teams in a way) choose a manufacturer and stick with it, work with/within their limits and rarely change it... That encourages (different) tactics and strategies, which makes the racing more exciting...

I know, it wouldn't stop all, as there are people who change their seating position depending on whether they drive clockwise or counter-clockwise on a track... But think of it, how cool would it be to have discussions about why you chose the tire you drive?
"I chose Cromo, because they have superb longevity while making the car alive just enough to have fun every time you start the car."
"I like Evostar the most, because they are grippy like no other tire. I don't get so bad marbling everyone is reporting, so it's just right for me."

Thoughts?

I think some brands look better on certain cars, but why not. Not really a big deal IMO...

I think that for leagues that suggestion would be awesome:

i already know leagues that in GTR2 requires, with the choose of a car, the choose of a tyre manifacturer too (and to stick with it too), and the same car with 2 different tyres has different advantages-disadvantages

so +1

Quote from wark :

I think some brands look better on certain cars, but why not. Not really a big deal IMO...

But you did read the whole post, yes? :doh:

85 views and only 2 guys with an opinion yet?

1. At the current rate, S4 is a good time to worry about how tyre brands differ.
2. Normal statements about tyre's are "I thank Hoosier tyres (for giving me a realy good bargain)"

Sorry about being boring.

Quote from heson :

1. At the current rate, S4 is a good time to worry about how tyre brands differ.

S3 is planned to be the final version of LFS so the time wouldnt be that good.

Quote from zeugnimod :

S3 is planned to be the final version of LFS so the time wouldnt be that good.

Yeah, you see how hopeless the situation is for this feature. But i dont know after S2 0.5z there might be S2 0.6a, then in a distant future S2 12.7x. Maybe after LFS S3 there will be LiveForGreed $1 (very expensive version) who knows.

You're too short in our community to judge that... The fact that the devs announced different brands would have different performance leads me to believe it will be implemented in one of the next patches... Together with Scawen promising he will finish everything he started with S2 means that it definately will be in S2 final... So, better to think about it now than to change it afterwards and risk another riot like with the shortcuts and the reset recently, don't you think?

Basically, my suggestion nudges people to carefully choose their tire and work with it rather than having the best option presented on a silver plate... It's a limitation in RL, so I'm all for reflecting that in LfS... It would add to the immersion imo...

Quote from bbman :

You're too short in our community to judge that... The fact that the devs announced different brands would have different performance leads me to believe it will be implemented in one of the next patches... Together with Scawen promising he will finish everything he started with S2 means that it definately will be in S2 final... So, better to think about it now than to change it afterwards and risk another riot like with the shortcuts and the reset recently, don't you think?

Basically, my suggestion nudges people to carefully choose their tire and work with it rather than having the best option presented on a silver plate... It's a limitation in RL, so I'm all for reflecting that in LfS... It would add to the immersion imo...

1. [Yay play the rookie card] Youre so great that register two years ago, and Im a noob surely.... Skip the BS thanks!
2. Maybe I wasnt clear enough, in context of the precison of other parts of the simulation, tyre brand variations would only be a fake feature. Not the direction this game is going (iterating towards being the ultimate sim without arcadey deviations)
3. Adding RPG elements are a cool idea (I loved MCO) but is very off topic at the moment.

Real tires differ in performance from brand to brand, what's fake about featuring that in LFS?
The development roadmap is not something Scawen and co. have skimped on.

Quote from heson :

1. [Yay play the rookie card] Youre so great that register two years ago, and Im a noob surely.... Skip the BS thanks!

[Yay play the poor victim card] If you actually read the post you maybe would be able to realize that it certainly wasnt meant in a bad way.... Skip the BS thanks!

Not a very good idea. There is no logical reason why different tyres would handle differently. It is impossible to determine what tyre manufacturer has certain attributes. Only way to know this is by testing or looking at a guide.

There would be no way of making people use certain manufacturers tires anyway too. It would always be changable and it would turn out to be a must if you want to win. And then people would be confused by not being able to do things because of their tires.

I don't think that it would add anything to racing, it would just make setting up the car more difficult and unlogical.

-1

Quote from geeman1 :

Not a very good idea. There is no logical reason why different tyres would handle differently.

Because they do in real life? Besides, tire companies are NOT part of a setup and so they shouldn't be in LfS too... And don't you think the devs would give us a list with the characteristics of those brands? I wouldn't worry about the balancing, I'm sure Scawen finds an acceptable solution...

Seriously, I highly doubt that it'll stay a visual eyecandy forever, read the april update page...
But making it part of the setup would make implementing differences worthless because everyone would just download some inferno WR-sets, so everyone has the same tires again... I want to stop that beforehand, because that would add to the excitement of the racing and, as I said before, the brand of the tires just isn't part of the setup...

Quote from bbman :

Because they do in real life?

I didn't mean that. I meant that there is no reason why for example Cromo tyre lasts in a long race, but has less grip than for example Michelin tyre. They just are that way.

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Seriously, I highly doubt that it'll stay a visual eyecandy forever, read the april update page...

I think that just meant Scawen is still thinking about it (or was).

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But making it part of the setup would make implementing differences worthless because everyone would just download some inferno WR-sets, so everyone has the same tires again... I want to stop that beforehand, because that would add to the excitement of the racing and, as I said before, the brand of the tires just isn't part of the setup...

How do you propose we do that? If it's hidden in some other menu than the setup it still can be changed, it will be just more annoying to do so. You can say that it isn't part of the setup as much as you like, but it will be regardless. Only thing to stop that would be to lock them somehow.. but generally people don't like locked stuff especially if it will make them potentially inferior compared to others.

Anyway, do we really need all these problems? Does differentiating tyre manufacturers really make racing that much better?
Imho it's just easier to leave this out and not worry about the problems.

i would probably be more pleased by the idea of the different tire brands having varying traits/performance if i didnt suck at setting up cars.

of course, in pub races, everyone will probably use the same tire, but if you're forced to choose 1 tire and stick with it in league races... maybe things will be different? also, this could help to even out the classes. maybe the xfr will run better with evostar tires and he ufr can find a nice blend of speed and durability with cromo? DOnt forget there will also be physics updates and who knows what else. The Devs have a masterplan.

Everything you say would be aggravating sounds like fun to me.
Plenty of car and motorcycle reviews mention different testers acclimatize to and perform better on different tires... "The brand-L tires provided with the car just didn't work with the car, but somehow tester-F went faster than everyone else on those tires, and lapped as fast as everyone else did on aftermarket brand-M".
All Scawen has to do is scale the different brands' performance figures to equal proportions.

There's a good case to be made against different tire brands, but I don't think these are good reasons not to have different tires:

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There would be no way of making people use certain manufacturers tires anyway too.

Why should they?

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It is impossible to determine what tyre manufacturer has certain attributes. Only way to know this is by testing or looking at a guide.

Just like we do now with the rest of the setup, what's the problem? Tires would be easier to figure out than the rest of the settings which are more inter-dependent.

Different tires would suit different people, which would in fact balance things out a little more, provided Scawen kept the tires well-balanced. If that isn't done right, I agree it's not a great idea. If it is, though, I just can't see why it would be all the trouble you say it would be.
My 2 c.

Quote from Breizh :

Why should they?

That was bbman's idea, not mine.

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Just like we do now with the rest of the setup, what's the problem? Tires would be easier to figure out than the rest of the settings which are more inter-dependent.

The problem is that the properties would be LFS specific and not related to real life. You can't know how using different tyres work in LFS by just expirience from RL, like you can do with any other setup option.

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Different tires would suit different people, which would in fact balance things out a little more, provided Scawen kept the tires well-balanced. If that isn't done right, I agree it's not a great idea.

Seems like balancing the cars is not an easy task so what makes you think that balancing tyres would be any easier? I don't even really understand how this balancing would work. If a certain tyre would last longer, how could it be balanced with a grippier tire in a 5 lap race or the other way around? Or how a more heat resistant tire would be balanced with a less heat resistant tire in the heat of Fern Bay? There would really be a one tire for each race. No-one wants to use a inferior tire.

Here is a summary how I see it, hope this makes it clearer why it would be better left off the game:

For:
Real life tyres have different properties (LFS emulates real life)
Balancing (?, would this really work?)
More interesting racing (really?)

Against:
Tyre specs would be artifical
You can't setup the tyres by RL expirience
The tyres in LFS are only selected for performance not because of other restrictions (sponsors, series rules, money, ...) like in real life
There would be one superior tire for each race

Imho the disadvantages outweigh the advantages for now.

Why would the specs be artificial? They could mimick real tires' differences.
I was thinking the tires would be balanced by different handling characters, not ability to cope with heat or longevity. I'm sure Scawen could figure out a nearly foolproof balancing scheme, though. I'd do some brainstorming except I'm way too tired just now.
Balancing cars is definitely not a piece of cake, but it is feasible. I think it hasn't been thoroughly done yet because it would take more time than is available for something that will have to change anyhow as the rest of the physics evolves and affects the balancing.

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You can't know how using different tyres work in LFS by just expirience from RL, like you can do with any other setup option.

I don't know about that. Why are tires more complicated to understand than suspensions for example? I don't think they are, in fact I think they're one of the simplest things to get a feel for, and you could understand different LFS tires just as you can any new rubber type that comes out in RL: by just trying it out, just like everyone learned LFS tires in the first place. Aren't the tires we have now made up too?

+Balancing with tires would work just as it does in RL: different people like and perform with certain rubbers' character better.
+The racing would be more interesting for the same reason LFS is more interesting with rather than without a variety of cars: different lines and race strategies.
-I don't think the tires would be hard to setup. Like I said, it is really not rocket science to figure out a certain rubber's "personality". It wouldn't take that long either.
-There wouldn't necessarily be one superior tire for each race, if it was done right; and obviously this is a critical factor - which I think is not impossible to manage so that the difference is a smaller factor than who is driving.
-Tire selection would be fun to have in leagues.

I do agree it would be tricky to balance it all out, but I personaly doubt Scawen would have laid out the groundwork for it like this, unless he had seen a feasible plan. He might have changed his mind since, sure.. I agree it would probably better happen later, when there are less things in flux.
Remember we're just exchanging ideas here.

Quote from Breizh :

Why would the specs be artificial? They could mimick real tires' differences.
I was thinking the tires would be balanced by different handling characters, not ability to cope with heat or longevity. I'm sure Scawen could figure out a nearly foolproof balancing scheme, though. I'd do some brainstorming except I'm way too tired just now.

How would the tyres have different handling characteristics? Tyres don't have some magic attributes in them. Only the rubber compound and the tyre pattern are variable (unless you change the size). So they only differences tyres could have is in grip, longevity and how it handles heat.

Quote :

I don't know about that. Why are tires more complicated to understand than suspensions for example?Aren't the tires we have now made up too?

They are not self-explanatory, that's the difficulty. If I raise the ride height the car rises and if I add camber I will have more camber, but if I change to Cromo tyres, what happens?
The current tyres are made up too, yes. But there is only one brand, so you don't have to worry about the quality of the tyre. It is what it is and you have to use it.

Quote :

I do agree it would be tricky to balance it all out, but I personaly doubt Scawen would have laid out the groundwork for it like this, unless he had seen a feasible plan.

But if we had only one tyre brand we wouldn't need to balance them at all!
I strongly think that during the April update Scawen mentioned that tyre brands don't have an effect for two reasons: 1. He wasn't sure about them 2. People would asked about it anyway, so he answered in advance.

The tyre walls were a nice addition to immersion and eye-candy wise, but it doesn't mean we have to go any further on that.

Quote from geeman1 :

That was bbman's idea, not mine.

Where? Show me the exact paragraph where I said that?

My suggestion just makes it harder to change the tire brand however I like (for every race), which would even counter the last two of your disadvantages, but you are too narrow-minded to see that... There is NO more to my suggestion, I didn't suggested differences between tire manufacturer's, that most likely will be changed, whether you like it or not...

About the other points: What in LfS ISN'T artificial? I certainly didn't see anything real... And why wouldn't you be able to set it up like in RL? It's still a tire ffs! Have you never bought new tires?

It's very common for a change in tire brands to be quite dramatic to motorcycle racers. You could find any number of examples, but Tamada in MotoGP went from being a strong championship contender to a nobody when he went from Bridgestone to Michelins. Tires just don't work and feel the same from brand to brand.

Quote :

They are not self-explanatory, that's the difficulty. If I raise the ride height the car rises and if I add camber I will have more camber, but if I change to Cromo tyres, what happens?

Try it out and see! It is unknown only until you've tried it out.
Few other things in the rest of the setups are self-explanatory, in the full options perspective. Only a small proportion of all the players I've seen in LFS really have an intuitive understanding of what any one setting should be set to for any given arrangement of all the other settings.. Tires are at the extremity of the setup, so it is always easy to read the feedback they are giving you, as opposed to one mechanical part that's in the middle of a lot of other parts' feedback.

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The current tyres are made up too, yes. But there is only one brand, so you don't have to worry about the quality of the tyre. It is what it is and you have to use it.

My perspective is that you would have tires with a limited number of attributes that are differently but evenly distributed. Just as LFS cars in each class are different but balanced for even overall performance, and again, the sticking point would be for the margin in performance between brands at most or all tracks to be smaller than the margin between drivers' abilities. If that can't be achieved, then I'd agree it would be more grief than fun... but I think it should be possible, and especialy easier later when everything's more balanced than now.

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But if we had only one tyre brand we wouldn't need to balance them at all!

(see above)

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I strongly think that during the April update Scawen mentioned that tyre brands don't have an effect for two reasons: 1. He wasn't sure about them 2. People would asked about it anyway, so he answered in advance.

That's possible. I do think it's of some value for players like us to explore in the devs' plain sight the pros and cons of ideas like this one.

Quote from bbman :

Where? Show me the exact paragraph where I said that?

Ok, You didn't exactly say that, but you were nudging towards that by saying that tyre brands are not part of the setup and people should stick to one brand.

Quote from Breizh :

I do think it's of some value for players like us to explore in the devs' plain sight the pros and cons of ideas like this one.

Yes, I think so too. Hopefully Scawen reads this thread before making a decision on this.

I think I have said all I have to say about this, so I won't bother repeating myself. Read my posts again with more tought if it is still unclear what I mean.

Likewise I see your point of view clearly. We'll just agree to disagree

after reading almost the entire post, i think everyone has a strong point in here...

the problem of a dominating tyre in a specific track is unavoidable, and regarding a lasting tyre over another in exchange for grip, is what you get while exchanging between R1 R2 and R3.

at first when i started reading the post i was in favor of different behavior for different tyre brands, but now that i have new points of view, there is no point of even having different tyre brands other than profit and the whoever gives more money gets the better tyre... and i think that something that the developers of this game aren´t really interested in, is selling the game to a brand.

i´m in favor of the "virtual brands" different tyre behavior... but if LFS is ever sponsored by some tyre brand other than michelin, i hope it stays as standard as well.

and why would i ever choose a "worse" tyre for a specific race... just for fun... we didn´t had the budget, and we had to buy cheap tyres and we´ll be running with a worn UF1.... just a fun race.

Quote from vf1-xj220 :

we didn´t had the budget, and we had to buy cheap tyres and we´ll be running with a worn UF1.... just a fun race.

Where did you get the money idea? Nobody ever mentioned anything about a budget...

Quote from vf1-xj220 :

the problem of a dominating tyre in a specific track is unavoidable,

Quote from vf1-xj220 :

and why would i ever choose a "worse" tyre for a specific race...

Yes it is, and I suggested it here: Make the choice of tire brand a player-specific thing instead of a setup-specific one and you'd have to find a compromise...