I voted yes to keep it simply because it's an option

The server providers may wish to use it which I have no problem with, whether the servers using this option become popular is to be proved but IMO probably not.

Personally I use the wheel view now, but when I first brought S2 I used cockpit view all the time, then I read that wheel view gives you more FPS and as I only had Onboard graphics at the time I found this very helpfull and have now got used to wheel view.

Now the problem seems to be that Scawen has forced this view in the LX competition which has undoubtedly alienated a big percentage of the community as any LFS'er that does not use cockpit view as their first choice has to relearn how to drive again from the new perspective which takes time and practice.

I found even though I used to race all the time in cockpit view as recently as 3 months ago switching back from wheel view to cockpit view has been virtually impossible and having a family with a job to hold down I just don't have the time to relearn driving from a new perspective and try to compete with the times that are being posted (Kudos to you all - Bloody Aliens )

Now don't get me wrong in no way am I bitter or even upset at this but if you normally play LFS from cockpit view then your lucky as you have a massive advantage over those that do not use this view.

I just hope Scawen thinks a little more in the future as it looks like he has pissed off quite a large chunk of the community by implementing this view into the LX competition.

From my experience racing in LFS it does not matter what view or input device or pc setup you have as with practice any combination can compete with the other and that's one of the great things about LFS.

So I am going to concentrate on winning races while all you Aliens are preoccupied for the next 3 weeks

Quote from tristancliffe :

You cannot ever say that floating magically behind your virtual car WHILST looking through a 19" LCD screen 3 feet away is MORE realistic than cockpit?

I think what most people mean is that since you're restricted so badly in terms of FOV and depth perception by the very nature of a simulator, the chase view/wheels view helps a bit to compensate for these problems. You get a better sense of where your car is in 3D space, and that is closer to what you will have in real life with a wide FOV and stereoscopic vision.

Whether or not that's true is of course for everyone to decide for themselves, but at least that's the rationale behind it.

this is really interesting: everytime we get an addition to the game, which brings the game more to realism people like it. or in other words. everytime someone suggesting something which is arcady, people go mad on his back.

NOW with the forced view, everything is totally different.

however i don't like the idea forcing people to use a specific kind of view. what's next? force people to use a clutch-pedal? or an lfs-certified steering wheel?

Quote from PLAYLIFE :

This "you can go to another server, if you want" is total BS and you all know it. We only have 5-6 servers with normal amount of cars running.

Hm, I have no idea what you are talking about. "My" server list doesn't look like that at all. It shows (way) more than 5-6 servers with a reasonable amout of players on it, and just a (very) few of them use forced cockpit view. :twirl:

Quote from AK-Chester :

Hm, I have no idea what you are talking about. "My" server list doesn't look like that at all. It shows (way) more than 5-6 servers with a reasonable amout of players on it, and just a (very) few of them use forced cockpit view. :twirl:

Let's not count the city driving and drift servers, for the sake of argument.

Quote from Gabkicks :

IRL, you can only see just a bit of the tires. and barely see the mirrors .
anyone else rememebr how nick heidfield described how much/little he could see from the cockpit?

Yeah, but...

IRL you are actually in the car, you can feel it, you can react to it and despite not being able to see much you have a better spatial awareness because you are actually there. All we have is a screen, sound and perhaps FF. In this case shoving the seat up a few cm to improve spatial awareness and obviate the lack of input you get from looking at a screen is not unreasonable IMO.

Quote from PLAYLIFE :

Let's not count the city driving and drift servers, for the sake of argument.

I didn't. :nol2:

Quote from Boris Lozac :

You mean like a racing driver in a race car?
With all this moaning over realistic things it's higly unlikely we will ever get engine failures ("i hate you scawen, i played 2 years with unbreakable engine, now i have to learn again, remove it") brake and water heating, etc...
It wouldn't surprise me if NO reset would be canceled in next patch..

Quote from srdsprinter :

I was just thinking the same thing

It is going to (continue to) be a very unpleasant place here as people continue to lament the development of this game. Balancing, Resets, now this. The worst is yet to come with damage modeling, etc.

What?!

Once again... what does one thing have to do with the others?!?!

We are talking about being forced to change the interface trough wich you are used to drive... not aditional features that requires no relearning whatsoever!

I wellcome damage modeling, oil and water heating, remove telepit, clutch fail from flatshift, and engine damage even more, so as all other improvements to the sim itself!
What the heck, you can even remove F9 and F10 info...
Now, about the drivig point of view I guess there's nothing more to say...
Is the interface between you and the race, and that should allways remain unchanged!
Is well shown over this days what this have caused among the comunity.

Quote from Huru-aito :

I understand the people who have temporarily lost their custom views, it's hard to adapt if you need a special setting because of your different hardware or something. But, in general.. Well, i made a picture.

Maby it`s funny, but as a wheelsview driver, I can see you don`t have the sligthtest idea, of what you are expressing.

The view are "sitting", as in forced view - Just without the car body !

Could you make a nice picture of that ??

Quote from alland44 :

Maby it`s funny, but as a wheelsview driver, I can see you don`t have the sligthtest idea, of what you are expressing.

The view are "sitting", as in forced view - Just without the car body !

Which is an advantage - you can see more, you can see the front wheels and exactly where you're placing them. Don't you think that wheels view (and chase view) would be a way to cheat in the current autocross competition?

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Which is an advantage - you can see more, you can see the front wheels and exactly where you're placing them. Don't you think that wheels view (and chase view) would be a way to cheat in the current autocross competition?

I can`t answer that. Subject is closed for me
Autocross I accept the forced view in

/OUT !

Quote from alland44 :

I can`t answer that. Subject is closed for me
Autocross I accept the forced view in

/OUT !

I know you've been arguing this for days, but please remember that this option is probably only going to be enforced in places where it's needed to keep things fair.

I voted to keep it as an option, and I think that is what most people did.

O/T

I call shenanigans on eRaptors avatar, trying to distract us from the argument on hand.


On topic:

I think that Forced cockpit view should be added to Custom views that fit within a box of reason (vertically edited) or hell, lets just use the box that scawen uses to detect if a custom view needs to be subjected to the Interior muffling the sound or not?

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

Yeah, but...

IRL you are actually in the car, you can feel it, you can react to it and despite not being able to see much you have a better spatial awareness because you are actually there. All we have is a screen, sound and perhaps FF. In this case shoving the seat up a few cm to improve spatial awareness and obviate the lack of input you get from looking at a screen is not unreasonable IMO.

Proof of how little an Open wheel car can see, is this past weekend in the ChampCar race at Toronto, someones front wing was under Paul Tracy's front for nearly 1/2 a lap, without him noticing it until it caused him to understeer into a wall, causing a fun looking pileup. Being able to move our camera vertically to create more spatial awareness isn't realistic in some cases becuase real drivers have the same issues. This is what I hate, I'm stuck on both sides of the fence on this arguement, I want forced cockpit view, but I want some adjustments being allowed, within reason.

If eveyone is getting their panties in a bunch due to an option, than what is everyone going to do when the next physics change comes? Is everyone going to whine and complain like they are now?

I think most of you seem to forget that you are playing an 'alpha', a game that isn't even 'beta'. Things are going to change, its the nature of the beast. LFS isn't done, there are going to be additions, modifications and maybe even subtractions from features, options, menus, interfaces, physics, damage, the simulation as a whole. All of these things will, in the end, make and keep LFS the awesome simulation that it is.

The poll doesn't lie. The majority of people who voted like the feature, some, as myself, would like it to me modified so you can move the view within a certian 'box' for some flexibility.

For autox chasecar is unfair. You can try to think of all the reasons in the world it isnt but it is. IMO its almost cheating, you can see everything that is around the car all the way up to the door sils. That's something you can't do in real life even if you move your seat all the forward up to the wheel and raise it up all the way till you can't feel your 'manpices' anymore.

Guess it all comes down to this....LFS is a simulation, it does its best to simulate driving a real car. Like many others said, you don't drive your car in real life by sitting on the roof or flying 6-12 feet behind it. It almost bothers me that there is such negativity about an option. What happends if brake fade is introduced, "I CANT STOP ANYMORE THIS IS CRAP". What if all these little things everyone wants to be implemented are finally added? It already shows that a lot of people are not really ready for a 'simulation', they just want an arcade game with ultra-real physics and features.

I don't think things like physics changes or brake fade are very useful comparisons. Nobody ever complains when the physics change.

Stuff like that is the same for everybody. Whereas in this case, some people feel they've had their driving method ruined or made obsolete - that's why they are angry about it.

I shouldn't really have to explain this...

Quote from Homeless_Drunk :

It already shows that a lot of people are not really ready for a 'simulation', they just want an arcade game with ultra-real physics and features.

Unbeliavable isn't it. They are actually justifying flying over the car, rather than try to adopt to the most realistic experience. It's a 2 days of adaptation max, but noooo...
I can't say that this is not Scawen's fault i'm afraid...

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I don't think things like physics changes or brake fade are very useful comparisons. Nobody ever complains when the physics change.

sure they are, its a change to the game. just like this is a change to the game. they are not all that different even if you think they are. brake fade and a physics change can also ruin your driving method, i know they will mess up mine but I'll just cope with it and learn to race again. there's no reason to bitch because...I can just quote myself again...

Quote :

I think most of you seem to forget that you are playing an 'alpha', a game that isn't even 'beta'. Things are going to change, its the nature of the beast. LFS isn't done, there are going to be additions, modifications and maybe even subtractions from features, options, menus, interfaces, physics, damage, the simulation as a whole. All of these things will, in the end, make and keep LFS the awesome simulation that it is.

Quote :

I can't say that this is not Scawen's fault i'm afraid...

Scawen did nothing wrong, he is developing a game. I am sure he knows he is going to piss people off along the way; after all, its a part of his job He introduced an option that makes perfect sense for compitition and some of the community over-reacted and went into a pannic/moan/whine spree.

Quote from Homeless_Drunk :

sure they are, its a change to the game. just like this is a change to the game. they are not all that different even if you think they are. brake fade and a physics change can also ruin your driving method, i know they will mess up mine but I'll just cope with it and learn to race again. there's no reason to bitch because...I can just quote myself again...

People don't bitch when they think it's an improvement. If the physics changed and people thought they were worse, then people would bitch.

Quote from Homeless_Drunk :

Scawen did nothing wrong, he is developing a game. I am sure he knows he is going to piss people off along the way; after all, its a part of his job He introduced an option that makes perfect sense for compitition and some of the community over-reacted and went into a pannic/moan/whine spree.

I was trying to say that with things like those race starts we had until recently (floor it and first speed magically engages) made people like this and gathered the arcadey crowd.
It was a HUGE mistake not to change that a LOOONG time ago. And also other things people suggested that could be easily implemented at the begining of S2 alpha and that is to make your car dead after hiting the wall/car/object with more than 30, 40 mph (front impact of course).
Those things lead to this community behaviour. LFS spoiled them and now they are crying like bunch of babies...

Quote from Homeless_Drunk :

sure they are, its a change to the game. just like this is a change to the game. they are not all that different even if you think they are.

They are very different. This change (forced cockpits) doesn't affect me, apparently it doesn't affect you either, but it does affect lots of other people. Whereas a physics change is the same for everybody.

I can totally understand why the chase view guys are freaking out. Have you ever tried playing LFS in chase view? It's impossible! I imagine that's how they feel about cockpit - it would take them a lot of effort to adapt, and they don't particularly want to adapt because they don't like that view anyway.

I can't imagine why you would ever want to play a sim in chase mode. I have a feeling this is the minority of racers though, and if they want to ruin the immersing experience of a sim then good luck to them. I couldn't care less, even if they are quicker this way.

Forced cockpit, I don't like though. Personally I don't think it's realistic, and I find it annoying. I don't think that the custom view I use (centre of the car, near the windscreen) gives me an advantage over anyone. I still see the road and a bonnet in front of me, just not a wheel and a set of arms (in addition to the ones I already have).

I think there are much better ways of making the game more sim-like than forcing views on people...

Quote from Homeless_Drunk :

they are not all that different even if you think they are.

Well we can all just stop commenting now, Homeless_Drunk has declared himself to be absolutely correct, so there is really nothing more to be said.

Quote from BrandonAGr :

How can people argue that the cockpit view is best because it is more realistic? Do you drive your car by looking at a 19" lcd screen that is 3 feet in front of you, no you don't, so there will NEVER BE A WAY for the view in LFS to be absolutely realistic....

Search for CWMAX's thread that has his video and tell me his cockpit view is unrealistic

I try to simulate what the view would look like if I was looking out the windshield of my car. I use the desk and wheel controller in my simulated view. My monitor sits directly behind my wheel. I use 50-60 FOV so that I can just see the gauges on screen since I don't have external gauges to connect to outgage (or whatever it's called). The area between the wheel and monitor is my dash area, disregarding the fact that my gauges are on screen. My screen is the windshield and at 50-60 FOV, simulates what you would see looking directly ahead through the windshield IRL. Thus, I indeed have no simulated peripheral vision because I do not have a 3 display setup to give me peripheral vision. I use the look to apex option, so I can see quite clearly when I'm cornering. I use the look left/right setup on my paddles quite often, thus no need for the useless side mirrors or peripheral vision.

This topic has been beaten to death in the past, and is really beaten to death currently with the addition of forced cockpit now. There is no argument of what is realistic and what is not. Of course it isn't realistic looking at a 17 inch display and saying that is exactly like real life. But what we are trying to do is simulate driving a race car within the confinements of computer equipment, thus the argument is indeed that the cockpit view simulates realism much greater than the chase cam, or any other stock view within racing sims. Your yelling that there is no realistic view because you are looking at a 19' screen is just ridiculous, because it assumes that folks here believe that sim racing completely replaces the real thing. It simulates and tries to recreate the most realistic feeling of driving that you can with a computer. Of course we don't think it is ultimate realism. You would only get close to that with a complete cockpit and a 360 degree display. We aren't imbeciles, but with a post like one quoted, it certainly displays that some folks can be.

My view is that it's a GAME, and that it's ok to sacrifice some realism in the name of fun.

Being able see your tire temperatures and pressures to the degree isn't exactly realistic, not by a long shot, but being able to do so makes the game allot more fun.

I say leave the basic game mechanics as realistic as possible (since that seems to be the mission of this game), but sacrifice as much as needed in the visual department, in the name of fun, without entering the realm of idiocy.

Personally I just think that the view should be forced IN THE COCKPIT. Additionally, everyone should be forced to use the same set. That way it's a competition of who is the best DRIVER, not who is the best TWEAKER. In fact, honestly, if there was a way to force the SHIFT+F view too, so that all the HUD displays (tire temps, time, cones hit, etc...) were gone, I'd opt for that too.