uh guys ... coordinate systems are essentially arbitrary

That's very true, yes.

Quote from GeForz :

But don't forget the spectators. I see no point why the cannot use a custom view. => Allow custom views for spectators

Yes but not only in spectate-mode also when watching the Replay the views are blocked. Thats not nice.
I think for spectating and watching replays all views should be allowed.

The cockpit view is unrealistic because we see 2 time the ~50cm space between our eyes and our screen!

The custom view (when moving the camera forward) allows us to get rid of that problem but creates another unrealistic issue which is allowing us to see things we shoudn't be able to see from our sit!

Could we have a zooming tool inside the cokpit view? The view wouldn't be different than the cokpit view but would focus on a particular part of the screen

What do you think?

Yep, the main problem with default view is the distance from our eyes to the screen - so we have to move view forward... But you still have to take a compromise and most of the time move camera some 25-35cm and not the whole 50cm to gel realistic adjusted view that still stays in the car in thus is "legal" like those two screenshots in the first page of this thread

Quote from sinbad :

Yep, I concur.

I agree entirely with sinbad and danowat (it's usually pretty hard to disagree with either!)

I'd suggest another way of putting it would be to estimate the cone of vision of the driver as seated in the car (allowing the player's height to be adjusted between reasonable values, I think most track days restrict driver height to around 6' 4", dan you're borderline too tall for some of them! :tilt Then allowing the player to set their camera position and FOV within the bounds of this cone.

This way there could be no argument that players can see more than the real-life driver would. In fact any position in front of the driver's head would offer less vision (but with better resolution). The ultimate realism then would come from having a screen so big and close to the driver that you can position the camera right at the virtual drivers eyes, this comes close: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbCI7FB2E3U

Smaller monitors, further away from the driver would then use a camera position further in front of the driver, but could still use an increased FOV to improve peripheral vision, as long as that FOV was not wider than the cone mentioned above, if that makes sense!

There's one thing I still want to say about that forced cockpit view. The argument for that is that it would be unfair if you used a custom view because you get an advantage. Well if so, then I know some other things that give people an advantage:

- Not everybody has a high-end computer. With low FPS it's harder to drive then with high FPS.
- Again, not everybody has a high-end pc, so not everyone can run LFS on 1600*blabla with 24x AA and mipmapping. So it might be harder to see the cones, for the next turn.
- There's still that stuttering when someone joins, since patch X. It's very very annoying, and it makes me hit the cones on the autox track.
- Not everyone is used to the cockpitview. For me it's like I have to learn to drive all the way from the beginning, I think, that if you always used cockpitview, you have an unfair advantage on those who haven't.

And last I am missing the virtual bar that represents the steering wheel. I turned the steering wheel off (I hate it to see two). But now I'm can't see what LFS is doing, so please, enable that bar, also in cockpitview.

So if you're gonna talk about an unfair advantage, I know a few. So should people with a high end pc also drive with low fps/low graphics, I don't think so. So should people who are not used to the cockpitview drive cockpitview, I don't think so.

Besides, in the LX4 you can see more from the track because there's no door, so don't say you can see more if you're using the hoodview, because that is simply not true. And it's more realistic too, the hoodview..

I'm getting really sick of that cockpitview, when I'm forced to use settings I don't want to use. And yes, I'd like to compete with that competetion. I think it is just simply unfair the way it's done now. PERIOD.

Sorry if it's the wrong thread, from all the 37627834 threads about this subject.

I don't know why but I like that dancing milk carton

The unfair advantage thing started out as a complaint against wheels only views (and to some extent centre-of/above-car views), which are different to the things you have listed because they provide an unrealistic advantage. In real life you can't see the wheels and have to judge where they are from the driving position.

In real life you don't have to worry about frame rates and lag, so in a sense high frame rates etc. are realistic advantages, and we should try to maximise frame rates and minimize lag as much as we can for everyone. Obviously it's impossible to eliminate these altogether, but that's life!

What I'm agreeing with others is that the cockpit view should be adjustable. I'm arguing that it should be so adjustable that "cockpit view" could be seen as a misnomer, as i have no problem with the camera being over the bonnet, whilst still in the virtual driver's "cone of vision". Perhaps "driver's view" would be a better name.

We should aim to make each individual's setup as realistic and usable as possible with their equipment, without giving an unrealistic advantage. I think this is the key point, we all want essentially the same thing (realism), just people are misinterpreting others' intentions.

I'm a tad confused as to exactly what the "T-Cam view" is.

And I still think this whole "forced cockpit view" server side option is a tad silly. No matter how "hardcore" or how "realistic" you try to make the game, it's still just that, a GAME! And seeing as it's just a game, it's ok to sacrifice SOME realism (without harming the underlying game mechanics of course), in the name of FUN.

If we all have the same options available to us, then i'd hardly call it an unfair advantage to use the wheel view. Ok, you don't want to use it, but oh well, tough luck. If you want to lap as fast as the guy using it (and I doubt he's lapping any faster than you), then the option is always there for you to use it. If you CAN, but don't WANT TO change your view (because your realism panties are in a bunch), then tough luck for you.

It's the view from the T-shaped camera modern F1 cars have on the top of the roll hoop/airbox intake.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It's the view from the T-shaped camera modern F1 cars have on the top of the roll hoop/airbox intake.

The ones they occasionally switch to on TV and brand as the "in car view"?

I'm not going to even bother rehearsing any arguments against the 'reality' of the cockpit view. It isn't any more real than any other view, but since the Dashboard Jihadis won't have it any other way, I have but one question: would a forced view allow us poor boys from the other side of the tracks to disable the naff cockpit meshes, so at least our frame rates aren't slashed to an unplayable level?

Yes - it's as 'in car' as you'll ever sensibly get. Sure you could have one mounted lower, and there is footage of an Alonso helmet camera around too, but they weren't very nice, and you couldn't see much. Nice to see how little F1 drivers can see, but doesn't make good TV.

Quote from Maelstrom :

The cockpit view is unrealistic because we see 2 time the ~50cm space between our eyes and our screen!
Could we have a zooming tool inside the cokpit view? The view wouldn't be different than the cokpit view but would focus on a particular part of the screen

What do you think?

i think the best realistic view, with a 19" 4/3 screen, should NOT display things bellow top of steering wheel , so we'll need a button "show dashboard" , like in reality when you stop looking road for a fraction of seconde to watch dashboard to check engine revs/ speed.

But, i think, it will be too strange to use

Quote from MagicFr :

so we'll need a button "show dashboard" , like in reality when you stop looking road for a fraction of seconde to watch dashboard to check engine revs/ speed.

I don't know in what reality you are but in my reality I don't press any buttons to see revs/speed

i have always been a CV driver in the driving games that i play, but with LFS, mirrors seem to be a crucial part of gameplay. on my 19" 4/3 monitor, if i set the FOV to include the mirrors, then (most cars at least) feel like i'm driving a dragster. I tend to drive with settings more closer to what MagicFr states above but with just enough to see clocks & gear indicator, because for me at least, seems far more realistic than the high FOV dragster view.

the problem i have with that though is to view my mirrors i have to turn my head a full 90deg to even view the mirror next to me. this is totally unrealistic, after even just a few turns i get totally disoriented and repeated use just plainly makes me feel sick (and not want to race no more).

what i'd like to see is two more options (buttons) for view to mirrors. this should turn/move your head only just enough to bring the mirror into the edge of the screen. that way (with the nearest mirror at least) you can still see the apex and view your mirror at the same time by just moving your eyeballs as both will sill be on the screen, all-be-it different positions. obviously, when bringing in the furthest mirror to the edge of view there will be even less of the apex on view, i dunno about you guys, but in r/l i tend to move my head more central to the car (when at speed) and as far back as possible to give the best view possible of furthest mirror and apex simultainiusly, by moving my eyeballs only.

i think what im trying to say is in mirror view, the mirror and apex (which should never be lost!!) should be at either end of the screen at the same time, instead of just the left/right 90deg snap that we have atm.

i am not suggesting that we replace the left/right view as it is really good, what i'm suggesting is extra mirror views buttons that is not so violent and won't make me as sick feeling, and allow those others like me with piss-ant tiny monitors (never thought of my 19" as small before LFS lol) a realistic FOV without the trade off for bringing mirrors into view.

i hope this makes sense lmao
QD

Okay, this is my first (and probably only) reply in any of the quadrillion threads about the Forced Cockpit View option.

So, here goes... ya ready?

It is a server option. Get it? As in it's optional. As in the host decides if he wants to enable it or not. You following me? You don't like it? No problem, then join another server! What's the big deal? Christ Nobody's forcing anybody to do anything! Just like some servers have the reset-option disabled and some have it enabled, so will some servers have the Forced Cockpit View option enabled and some will have it disabled. I just don't see what the hell everybody's getting so friggin' uptight about. Really, it's becoming absolutely ridiculous

Besides, I don't think I've seen one server that has it enabled On the other hand, I probably wouldn't notice it because I always use the CV...

EDIT: On topic, I agree that there should be a margin to adjust the POV.

lol, i only was commenting on the problems i have with a realistic FOV with LFS in cockpit view. just with the headaches (after 5-10mins!!) i get with the disorientation from 90deg snap left/right just to view mirrors, lets just say i wont be winning no races soon

i am a cockpit view player, allways have been, allways will be

QD

Quote from obsolum :

I just don't see what the hell everybody's getting so friggin' uptight about.

I can't race online at the mo' so I don't really care... I also understand that its an option. But the 'join another server response' is irritating. I'm in this game for quality racing. My beef with the forced view has simply been that once 'cockpit view' becomes (somewhat irrationally) equated with 'proper' competition, then the decent servers that provide decent racing will ALL adopt it.

Peer pressure....

I don't have this problem with the forced disabling of braking help, or any other such aids. I do have a problem with any attempt to control what happens on my side of the screen.

Its no ones business how I deal with the information provided from the game. I'll say this again, realism is not a visual style, and forced cockpit views are just an attempt to control a style. It has no effect on the physics... Its just visual tinkering by people who have a false understanding of what realism and simulation really means.

I think Scawen should implement a few more options. Along with the "forced cockpit view" there should be "forced chase view", "forced wheels view", "forced heli cam", "forced TV cam" and "forced custom view". If those options were implemented, nobody could complain .

Quote from Linsen :

Along with the "forced cockpit view" there should be "forced chase view", "forced wheels view", "forced heli cam", "forced TV cam" and "forced custom view".

ROFL.... Ah, sweet rationality....

Quote from sinkoman :

And I still think this whole "forced cockpit view" server side option is a tad silly. No matter how "hardcore" or how "realistic" you try to make the game, it's still just that, a GAME! And seeing as it's just a game, it's ok to sacrifice SOME realism (without harming the underlying game mechanics of course), in the name of FUN.

Actually hardcore sort of options like this are NORMAL in serious sims and have been for a while.

NR2003 had a hardcore OPTION and in LFS FCV is an OPTION. The NR2003 would cause serious fights here because it also locked FOV and visual quality. Visual quality settings are forced so people could not lower smoke levels etc to gain an advantage that way.

While SOME here play LFS as they would any other game, more treat it as the SIM it is. This is why the hardcore sort of options are starting to come in. It means we can race knowing the only people that join the server are just as serious.

I agree with FCV but feel the seat should be adjustable or it should allow custom view within reason.

BTW: Scawen has stated in the past that LFS is a hardcore sim and will get more hardcore so get ready for MORE options like this.

Quote from Woz :

Actually hardcore sort of options like this are NORMAL in serious sims and have been for a while.

NR2003 had a hardcore OPTION and in LFS FCV is an OPTION. The NR2003 would cause serious fights here because it also locked FOV and visual quality. Visual quality settings are forced so people could not lower smoke levels etc to gain an advantage that way.

While SOME here play LFS as they would any other game, more treat it as the SIM it is

Then I think some need to realize that no matter how much of a sim it will be, it'll still be just a game, so it's ok to sacrifice some things in the name of fun.

It's a sim, sure, it's a great sim, and the way I see it, is that as long as you leave the underlying ingame mechanics alone, then it'll stay that way.

I really do see the benefits outside of "realism" with this FCV option, like how it'll be possible to filter out newbs who ruin races from lack of racing knowledge, or people who just pop into a server and have never raced the combo in their life, my main concern is that it'll some day end up like the BF2 "infantry only" option, which ended up being used in the great majority of servers, effectively splitting the game community.

Quote from Woz :

While SOME here play LFS as they would any other game, more treat it as the SIM it is. This is why the hardcore sort of options are starting to come in. It means we can race knowing the only people that join the server are just as serious.

I'm not with this, do you mean that people that doesn't use cockpit view isn't "serious"? If so, thats bullshit.

My point on the other hand is that as long as you have your view INSIDE the car and on the DRIVERS side, that should be enough for the "hardcore" mode. Because what people think is realism is a subjective thing. What I think is realistic could be different from someone elses, (note that I'm not talking about wheel or chaseviews here)

Good points raised in this thread about pillars blocking the view and moving it forward to see better bringing tiny unrealistic advantage (FXR is worst case).

What do you think about moving the cockpit view by adjusting the seat which would make driver with his mass to actually move (within limits of course), so if you want to see better you get a little disadvantage? Take a look for example DTM cars and where the driver sits because of better mass distribution, and just imagine how little they can see sitting that low and that back.