Quote from MyBoss :

I'm not with this, do you mean that people that doesn't use cockpit view isn't "serious"? If so, thats bullshit.

My point on the other hand is that as long as you have your view INSIDE the car and on the DRIVERS side, that should be enough for the "hardcore" mode. Because what people think is realism is a subjective thing. What I think is realistic could be different from someone elses, (note that I'm not talking about wheel or chaseviews here)

Then you need to LEARN TO READ WHAT IS SAID and not what you THINK IS SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let me help you just a little and highlight this for you.

Quote from Woz :

I agree with FCV but feel the seat should be adjustable or it should allow custom view within reason.

There are advantages to certain views like wheel only or chase linked with visibility. When visible windscreens are implemented and damage allows them to break this sort of OPTION will probably become the NORM on many servers because people will want to know that other people do not select views that give them BIG advantages due to the fact they are outside the car or the car is hidden so they do not see the broken glass etc.

Yes it should be adjustable within reason but as already highlighted I already said that.

Quote from Woz :

When visible windscreens are implemented and damage allows them to break this sort of OPTION will probably become the NORM on many servers because people will want to know that other people do not select views that give them BIG advantages due to the fact they are outside the car or the car is hidden so they do not see the broken glass etc.

That is so true and maybe we could have visible windshield by the S2 final, i'm sure Scawen and Eric figured it out how to do it... so people should start getting used to realistic stuff.
Now, you COULD say that Cockpit view is only "fair" in autocross stuff, but if we had breakable and dirty windshield from the begging? Would you than say that CV is not the only realisitc AND fair option?
C'mon people, dump your bad habits from the past and start getting used to in playing this SIM as it should be played..

Quote from Woz :

Then you need to LEARN TO READ WHAT IS SAID and not what you THINK IS SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let me help you just a little and highlight this for you.

You don't need to get all fired up over a little question. I asked that because I wanted to know your thoughts, I don't know what you think. Right?
Don't need to flame me for that.

Quote from Woz :

When visible windscreens are implemented and damage allows them to break this sort of OPTION will probably become the NORM on many servers because people will want to know that other people do not select views that give them BIG advantages due to the fact they are outside the car or the car is hidden so they do not see the broken glass etc.

I agree, if I want to have my wheel up at the steering wheel I should be able to have it there, while someone else can have their settings further back in the car.

Regarding the forward/back adjustment, don't we already have zoom keys in cockpit view, 5 & 6? Or was it F5 and F6.

Quote from cannonfodder :

Regarding the forward/back adjustment, don't we already have zoom keys in cockpit view, 5 & 6? Or was it F5 and F6.

That is Field of View, not the same thing as moving backward/forward. Try holding 6 all the way to the end and you'll see the effect...

Quote from Woz :

While SOME here play LFS as they would any other game, more treat it as the SIM it is. This is why the hardcore sort of options are starting to come in. It means we can race knowing the only people that join the server are just as serious.

This is just sanctimonious bollocks.

Its precisely the reason I hate the idea of a 'hardcore' mode that includes dubious fripperies such as forced views. You are talking rubbish. While the notion of breakable windows etc has some slight merit, chasing rainbows like changeable weather conditions in a sim that still hasn't got its clutch sorted out is putting the cart so far in front of the horse its absurd.

Whose to say the clutch isn't sorted already in Scawen's version. It's the sort of thing that he's been talking about recently (in the conversations about gear change types), and so it's the sort of thing that might be improved.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Whose to say the clutch isn't sorted already in Scawen's version. It's the sort of thing that he's been talking about recently (in the conversations about gear change types), and so it's the sort of thing that might be improved.

<sigh>

That seems to be the way with LFS.... I'm here because LFS provides high quality simulation driving with a low impact on my PC. Once the eye candy starts ruining that experience, I'll be gone. Breakable windows and flying gobbets of mud come into that category for me.

If you've sorted the clutch, Scawen... Then release it. Stop playing at being a graphic designer.

can someone tell me how many tenths you will lose over a lap because you can't see your wheels?

if being able to see more can cause such a big deal then maybe Mark Webber should get a 10 place grid penalty every race for sitting higher and seeing more?

um....am I the only one finding this unfair advantage argument totally bollocks?

And as for "playing the sim as it should".

It's your own issue how you play your game, during over 5 years of LFS never had I been asked online what view was I using.....cos no one really cares! Just like no one bothers whether you are using virtual clocks..virtual mirrors..tire temp display... heck, for realism sake all overlays should be turned off...track map? in your dreams.

Why suddenly it became such a big deal what view others are using? How does it affect you? I can't imagine how people can race online for so many years if being able to see your wheel is considered a significant performance advantage...... If that is so important, someone switching sides in the cockpit must have freak you out...

I only use cockpit view myself, however I don't see why others should be enforced to use the same view since it's a thing of personal reference which doesn't affect the racing..even if it's a server side option. I don't gain anything from that and don't lose anything...so why bother?

You don't want damage? You don't want breakable glass? Do you not want rain either? What about visual tyre condition? What about engine blow ups, variable day/night cycles, waving/animated flags/marshalls?

All of these things do nothing but ADD to the 'high quality driving simulation', yet all of them are 'eye-candy'.

If he's finished the clutch we'll get it in the next incompatible patch - probably Y.

Quote from tristancliffe :

You don't want damage? You don't want breakable glass? Do you not want rain either? What about visual tyre condition? What about engine blow ups, variable day/night cycles, waving/animated flags/marshalls?

All of these things do nothing but ADD to the 'high quality driving simulation', yet all of them are 'eye-candy'.

That's not eye candy in the slightest. Those actually change and/or add to the underlying ingame mechanics, and change the game itself.

Eye candy is just something there for show. If I put cows behind the barriers in Aston, it'd just be something good to look at. The player doesn't need to react or interact with the cow to play the game.

If I put the cow in the middle of one of the straights at Aston, then it'd no longer be eye candy, but it'd become a gameplay feature. It actually changes the way one plays the game, as one is required to interact with or react to the presence of the cow to successfully play the game.

Cockpit view really is nothing but eyecandy. Eyecandy that I thoroughly enjoy, but eyecandy nonetheless. You might need to play a little differently, and it may take you awhile to become accustomed to the change in visuals, but it doesn't actually change the way the game is played. Sure, it may change the way you PERCIEVE the game, but there's nothing there for the player to interact or react to.

My post was in reply to Nihil's posts above. He said that changing light was absurd and would leave LFS when such eye-candy came in.

Quote from tristancliffe :

My post was in reply to Nihil's posts above. He said that changing light was absurd and would leave LFS when such eye-candy came in.

Sorry, thought you were replying to the post prior to yours.

Should have quoted. Wasn't expecting someone to get in between Nihil and me.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Should have quoted. Wasn't expecting someone to get in between Nihil and me.

oo-er , a Tristan and Nihil sandwich, the mind boggles

Quote from danowat :

oo-er , a Tristan and Nihil sandwich, the mind boggles

:lovies3d:

Actually, what I said was that chasing rainbows was absurd (though I agree its quite romantic... )

Quote from tristancliffe :

You don't want damage? You don't want breakable glass? Do you not want rain either? What about visual tyre condition? What about engine blow ups, variable day/night cycles, waving/animated flags/marshalls?

What I want out of life, is quite limitless. I have a huge appetite. I am however, a realist, and would always prefer to see the driving worked out properly before we start simulating the distractions from driving.

I wouldn't drop LFS as a game, just because of the eye candy, but I would be forced out because my PC won't cope with it. The absurdity is to exclude a section of a committed player base, at a time when development of the basics is still in progress.

I know that all these things will be optional (before anyone raises that point again), so can I just refer you to my previous point if you do feel the need to respond that way...)

I'd also like to say that having a forced cockpit view, before the GTRs have even got proper cockpits is just cart before the horse again. I mean how long does it take to knock up a basic GTR cockpit mesh? A day or two? I think I'm being generous in that estimate....

I fully expect the GTRs will have updated cockpits in the next main patch. In fact, I reckon several of the tracks will be improved/tweaked, most of the cars will be tweaked in some way (that doesn't change the mapping, as the exteriors are okay in the majority), a better helmet mesh, and perhaps a new car or track or two.

The FCV was added prior to new, nicer cockpits for the AX Competition. It could have waited. Indeed, it it wasn't for the competition it WOULD have waited.

Again, I'd like to see the driving worked out. But I wouldn't mind sorting the driving out ALSO when brake heat/wear, wet tarmac, day/night (including track temperature) cycles, and off-line dirt are added. That way we have a car simulation that works well in all conditions rather than really well in just dry, static conditions.

It's not as though LFS is a long way from reality in terms of tyre physics nowadays.

Interesting point Tristan, if we get breakable windshields (breakable windshield wipers???) non-cockpit view would provide an advantage in that some-what extreme case (perhaps rallycross).

Wow...

Quote :

Then I think some need to realize that no matter how much of a sim it will be, it'll still be just a game, so it's ok to sacrifice some things in the name of fun.

wrong.

Its a simulation...let me quote from lfs.net (http://www.lfs.net/?page=moreabout)

Quote :

LFS S2 is a serious racing simulator. No arcade modes, no steering aids - YOU have to do the driving. It is therefore highly recommended to drive the sim with a steering wheel, because even though you can use keyboard and/or mouse, a wheel is what you use in a real car, so a wheel should be used in a serious racing simulator. Especially when going online, where fast reactions are required.

I noticed a lot of the people who are bitching (not all of them) are newer to the game. If you go back though the forums, even back to RSC, you will notice LFS has always been meant to be a SIMULATION not a simplistic arcade game. Like myself and others have said, these kind of additions that make the game more realistic will really separate the arcade racers from the simulation racers.

I understand the arguments about limited FOV and un-adjust-ability, those are valid arguments and I can agree with those. But some of you who say you can't drive or feel what the car is doing in CV, I find that hard to believe. (I'm not talking about FPS issues, I'm talking about drive-ability in general).

I'll quote myself again for the 5000th time

Quote :

I think most of you seem to forget that you are playing an 'alpha', a game that isn't even 'beta'. Things are going to change, its the nature of the beast. LFS isn't done, there are going to be additions, modifications and maybe even subtractions from features, options, menus, interfaces, physics, damage, the simulation as a whole. All of these things will, in the end, make and keep LFS the awesome simulation that it is.

All in all I agree with the FCV but the addition of minor adjustments would be welcome.

Quote from Homeless_Drunk :

Wow...



wrong.

Its a simulation...let me quote from lfs.net (http://www.lfs.net/?page=moreabout)



I noticed a lot of the people who are bitching (not all of them) are newer to the game. If you go back though the forums, even back to RSC, you will notice LFS has always been meant to be a SIMULATION not a simplistic arcade game. Like myself and others have said, these kind of additions that make the game more realistic will really separate the arcade racers from the simulation racers.

I don't see it as an arcade game, not in the slightest. I see it as a driving simulation GAME.

No matter how "hardcore" the sim becomes, it'll still be a video game. I could see force cockpit view making sense in the future once gameplay FEATURES that accentuate its use actually come into play, but as it stands, it's just starting arguments left and right.

I bet you that once we have things like windshield brakage and dynamic car dirt (lol) implemented, then barely anybody will complain, because FCV then becomes a gameplay feature. At the moment though, I find it rather pointless, if only because taking it out would prevent oh so many arguments in the community.

Quote from sinkoman :

I don't see it as an arcade game, not in the slightest. I see it as a driving simulation GAME.

No matter how "hardcore" the sim becomes, it'll still be a video game. I could see force cockpit view making sense in the future once gameplay FEATURES that accentuate its use actually come into play, but as it stands, it's just starting arguments left and right.

I bet you that once we have things like windshield brakage and dynamic car dirt (lol) implemented, then barely anybody will complain, because FCV then becomes a gameplay feature. At the moment though, I find it rather pointless, if only because taking it out would prevent oh so many arguments in the community.

How many times.........

FCV at the moment is an OPTION!!!!!

You are NOT forced to use it or join a server that has it enabled. It was created for LX Month.

You appear to agree that it WILL be needed later so what is wrong with adding it now.

Quote from Woz :

How many times.........

FCV at the moment is an OPTION!!!!!

You are NOT forced to use it or join a server that has it enabled. It was created for LX Month.

You appear to agree that it WILL be needed later so what is wrong with adding it now.

The main problem I see with adding it now is how many people disagree with it, and that if it were to become used on the majority of servers, I fear that a good portion of the community would just up and leave.

Quote from sinkoman :

The main problem I see with adding it now is how many people disagree with it, and that if it were to become used on the majority of servers, I fear that a good portion of the community would just up and leave.

The same happened when:

• Keyboard control was changed and people still wanted the old one.
  
• tyre heat/wear came in and people wanted wear/heat optional.
  
• damage came in and people wanted it optional.
  
• Car reset functionality was changed and that one is still going.

The same will happen on the next changes like this and the next after that........

Everyone says they will leave and nobody does. There is a bit of chaos while people adapt and then its all normal again.

There is NO right time for any change as people do not like change. I get the feeling FCV will be relaxed a little so customisation is allowed within reason (View adjustable seat or restricted custom views etc) but it will still force you inside the car with the car body visible.

Its a GOOD option and was needed.

Quote from Homeless_Drunk :

Like myself and others have said, these kind of additions that make the game more realistic will really separate the arcade racers from the simulation racers.

This is elitist stereotyping plain and simple, if these supposed "arcade racers" actually existed don't you think they'd be playing arcade games and not a simulation like LFS?

Woz to his credit has brought up the only objectively valid reason for introducing fcv but then even that could be gotten around, just place a virtual windscreen in-front of all views. Smoke obscuring your vision would be a valid reason for disallowing chase view which I wouldn't oppose.

This whole thing really has more to do with elitism than achieving anything substantial for the game.