Hello, racers.

After Round 5, some situations came to light that needed to be addressed re: our rules system. Please see the attached Word document for the changes (in bold). These will be added to the official rules page shortly.

Important changes, summarized:

• Every car must have at least two drivers per race. No single driver may drive more than 75% of the race distance.
  
• Flipped cars no longer have to spectate. They should wait for a race control message instructing them to reset their car. After the subsequent restart, they will be given a 45-second penalty in order to simulate the repair cost for damage incurred during their accident. They will take this penalty under green flag conditions.
  
• When the SC/full-course yellow comes out, you are to cease racing immediately and fall in line. This includes cars you are on the same lap with AND cars that are one or more laps behind or ahead of you. In other words, NO PASSING (unless you're a lapped car ahead of the leader who's passing the SC).
  
• Pit speed limiter is no longer required until the final sector of the lap prior to the restart. When the leader enters the final sector, he must engage the pit limiter. All cars behind must close the gap (but still leave room to the car ahead) and also engage their limiters. At this time the SC will drive off. The green will come out when the leader enters the S/F straight. Though there will be no limiter required prior to this final sector, the SC will run on its limiter, so you must drive intelligently and without excess testosterone. Just be smart, people.
  
• Under a SC period, drivers exiting the pits must maintain the positions they have when they exit. In other words, no passing someone after you've exited the pits but before you catch the field.
  
• Previously, all DNFs were placed behind all finishing teams. In other words, a lead lap team who ran out of gas on the last lap would be ranked behind a team who finished 10 laps down. We feel that this system is unfair to teams who drive great races but DNF very close to the end of the race. Therefore, from now on, teams who DNF but have completed 90% of the leader's completed laps will be ranked with finishing teams in order of laps finished. Teams who DNF will be ranked behind all finishing cars on their lap. There are examples in the rules document if this is confusing for anyone.

Here's a quick extra update thanks to our eagle-eyed marshal Hallen:

• There are two exceptions to the no passing under SC rule: 1) as previously stated, drivers who are laps behind but ahead of the leader may pass the SC (but not each other) and 2) drivers of undamaged cars may pass cars that are off the pace due to severe damage (i.e., the cars that brought out the SC period).
  

Just so I understand:

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

• Flipped cars no longer have to spectate. They should wait for a race control message instructing them to reset their car. When the race is restarted following the SC period resulting from their flip, they will be given a stop-go penalty in order to simulate the repair cost for damage incurred during their accident.

So we are running Reset on now?
Doesn't that undo all the damage, and give them fresh rubber?
Basically flipping your car results in less than one lap penalty?

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

• Previously, all DNFs were placed behind all finishing teams. In other words, a lead lap team who ran out of gas on the last lap would be ranked behind a team who finished 10 laps down. We feel that this system is unfair to teams who drive great races but DNF very close to the end of the race. Therefore, from now on, teams who DNF but have completed 90% of the leader's completed laps will be ranked with finishing teams in order of laps finished. Teams who DNF will be ranked behind all finishing cars on their lap. There are examples in the rules document if this is confusing for anyone.

Basically TDRT would be ranked 6th instead of 7th from now on?

Quote from srdsprinter :

Just so I understand:

[/list]So we are running Reset on now?
Doesn't that undo all the damage, and give them fresh rubber?
Basically flipping your car results in less than one lap penalty?

Reset will be off until someone is flipped, at which time a marshal will activate it and RCM the flipped driver to reset. Then it will be turned off again. If anyone is caught abusing the reset when not flipped, they will be DQ'd and under probation for the remainder of the season. A second offense of this nature means a ban from the league. However, this shouldn't be a problem as the marshals will use a directed RCM to tell the flipped driver when to reset and no one else should be aware that it's on.

Thanks for pointing out how short a SG is. I was under the impression that a SG was for 30 seconds, until I just tried it. Apparently it's 10. We'll change the SG to a 45s penalty, unless the consensus is that that's too lenient.

Quote :

Basically TDRT would be ranked 5th instead of 7th from now on?

Basically, yes. We're applying the rule to this race's results as well. So they will in fact benefit from it.

After some pointed objections from Stu, we are reconsidering the two above-quoted rules changes.

i.e.,

1) The time a flipped car is held in the pits after its reset may be extended to several laps.

2) The change re: DNFs will either be applied to all previous results this season or to none of them (but will be applied in the future in either case).

The admins will confer over these matters and give a decision shortly.

Quote:
Basically TDRT would be ranked 5th instead of 7th from now on?
Basically, yes. We're applying the rule to this race's results as well. So they will in fact benefit from it.

Pls. allow me a comment:

For the TDRT team it wouldn?t matter if this rule starts from next race. The main point is: This rule makes totally sense. 179 laps driven and a unlucky DNF is better then waiting in the pits for 3h55mins and then do 2 laps and finsish the race by crossing the start/finish line...


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Agree, but it needs further thought:

What if you had lapped the field?
Would you still win the race regardless that you did not finish?

Quote from srdsprinter :

Agree, but it needs further thought:

What if you had lapped the field?
Would you still win the race regardless that you did not finish?

No, because the leader has to cross the finish line after 4 hours has elapsed in order to end the race. If the leader has DNF'd he cannot cross the finish line, and therefore the clock will simply continue to run until 2nd place has taken the lead and crossed the finish.

But he had more laps (theorhetically)

He won't have more laps once the 2nd place car (and other cars on the 2nd place car's lap) has caught him and passed him and taken the finish.

The IMSA sporting code shortcuts this by simply declaring the 2nd place car the winner, but LFS does it automatically.

Quote :

6.21.4 If the leading car is not running at the expiration of the time limit, the checkered flag will be given to the next highest running car in the same manner.

6.22 TIES

In case of a tie (dead heat), the competitors concerned will share equally the sum of the prizes, championship points, and other awards allotted for their positions.

6.23 OFFICIAL RESULTS

6.23.1 All starting cars may be credited with a finishing position whether or not they are running when the checkered flag is given.

Basically, the race cannot end until the leader crosses the finish line. If the leader (who has a lap or more lead on the field) DNFs, say, on the last lap, then the car in 2nd place will continue to lap until he becomes the leader and then takes the checkers. The car who was in 1st will then be classified as the last car on the lead lap.

See how it works?

Say Benji did not DNF, he completed 181 laps in under 4 hours, but ran out of gas on lap 182.

Niki would continue and take the win with 180 laps. But with the rules now, Benji would be scored as the last car with 181 laps, therefore, he wins.



(Edit, sorry to be difficult, but rules should be able to work in all instances)

Quote from srdsprinter :

Say Benji did not DNF, he completed 181 laps in under 4 hours, but ran out of gas on lap 182.

Ok...

Quote :

Niki would continue and take the win with 180 laps. But with the rules now, Benji would be scored as the last car with 181 laps, therefore, he wins.

You're missing the logic here.

Niki cannot finish the race with 180 laps if Benji has completed 181. The race will not end until the leader crosses the finish line, and Niki will not be the leader until he has made up the laps he's down and passed Benji. He can cross the line as many times as it takes, but the race won't end until he's the leader. Niki would win with 182 laps completed, Benji would either end up on the tail end of the lead lap (if he completed more than half of lap 182) or on the tail end of 1 lap down (if he completed less than half of lap 182).

Hmm... I see.

However, a car must spectate when he runs out of fuel.

Benji spectates after finishing 181 laps.
Niki wins with only 180.

I have to admit I haven't actually tested these circumstances, but they're what logic would dictate should happen and Scawen seems to be pretty big on logic.

Quote from srdsprinter :

Hmm... I see.

However, a car must spectate when he runs out of fuel.

Benji spectates after finishing 181 laps.
Niki wins with only 180.

Aha, you've got me there.

We can do one of two things in this specific circumstance:

1) We can force the (former) leader to remain on track until the race ends.

2) We can assign the (former) leader to the tail end of the lead lap.

I'd prefer #2.

Now, let's discuss what sort of time penalty flipped cars should get following a reset.

45 seconds?
1 lap?
2 laps?
3 laps?

I'm thinking that one of the middle two options is probably the best.

It's pretty theorhetical, but as you said, needs to be based on sound logic.

Basic rule of racing has always been:
To finish first, first you must finish.

I can appreciate and sympathize for TDRT's situation, but it seems unfair to penalize a team that did finish, especially given the points format.

Ergo, it is illogical to use a sanctioning body's rules in some aspects, but disregard them in others.

As long as something is set pre-event, all teams know and approach a race accordingly.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Now, let's discuss what sort of time penalty flipped cars should get following a reset.

45 seconds?
1 lap?
2 laps?
3 laps?

I'm thinking that one of the middle two options is probably the best.

Personally, I would like to see the team to be able to continue, but only for the sake of the other teamates.

If a car was salvagable, I would imagine it would be a considerable time deficit. With only 8 scoring points, after a flip even a leader should have a hard time getting into the points. I'd say 5 minutes, 3 laps seems like a very recoverable amount of time.

It should be EPIC if someone comes back from flipping their car.

Where will this lead though? Team F1RST flipped out of the track outside the fence. Would they get to reset?

Quote from srdsprinter :

Hmm... I see.

However, a car must spectate when he runs out of fuel.

Benji spectates after finishing 181 laps.
Niki wins with only 180.

Well, it doesn?t matter at all what you?d do with this 181 laps car. Spectate it, park it on the grass or whatever. This car still has done 1 lap more then your " winner " with 180 laps only.

Another thing is: The 181 laps car would have been the fastest car on the track and therefore deserves to win.

But I must admit. You?re confusing me ... gi?me a break pls.

Regards..
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Quote from srdsprinter :

I can appreciate and sympathize for TDRT's situation, but it seems unfair to penalize a team that did finish, especially given the points format.

???

Pls. read my post 6 in this thread once more...
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Quote from R.Kolz :

the fastest car on the track and therefore deserves to win.

The fastest car does not mean it deserves to win.

That's why we run the race. Otherwise, just qualify and call it a day.

Quote from R.Kolz :

???
Pls. read my post 6 in this thread once more...

In the future my friend.

Quote from srdsprinter :

The fastest car does not mean it deserves to win.

That's why we run the race. Otherwise, just qualify and call it a day.

Yay we won o/

:P

Quote from AppiePils :

Yay we won o/

:P

Best Post Yet.


Final Thoughts on Resets vs DNF's:

Racing is about driving to the limit. Pushing too hard has consequences!

If you remove those consequences, all you have is a hotlap game ran for 4 hours.

NO offence to anyone here, but all the cars that DNF'd due to flipping were pushing over the Limit, its that simple. Even by rolling tire or physics glitch, you were over the limit of staying in control of your vehicle.

The Balance between all out speed and leaving enough room for error is what endurance racing is about!


I would like for the teams to be able to continue, but there has to be a severe enough consequence that punishes those who drove past the limits.

Quote from srdsprinter :

Hmm... I see.

However, a car must spectate when he runs out of fuel.

Benji spectates after finishing 181 laps.
Niki wins with only 180.

mate this would be if was 2 laps down when Benji run out of fuel, witch is impossible If we are in same lap he would have 179 and i 180 You didn't count lap what you are in, you count last lap you cross start finish line.

I dislike this rule of car reseting, can we have pool about that, it's unfair, if you flip no more racing, imo this is dumb
tbh this flipping is only been problem whit FE. But it can happen on other tracks too, still that doesn't mean that you can just reset you car and go on (whit penalty or not, doesn't matter ).

IMO Shift+S and Shift+P are forbidden whit reason. Only time car can countinue is in case of disconnect.
I liked idea about push car, if you stuck in sand (XRR's problem) push car saves you

And i agree whit rule when someone gets DNF in last 10% of race (24 minutes) he should be scored in final results in order of his laps finish.