Quote from Christofire :

CTRA isn't. It's ongoing. There's many, many races every day, far more than most RL race series have in a year. If the points won were the same amounts (i.e. 50 for a win, 30 for 2nd, etc) then you'd just get people with inflated scores, and you'd have to win far more to progress. 50pts for a win doesn't mean anything if the next tier is 5 million away.
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Gaining a licence is supposed to be hard, and it's supposed to mean something when you get it. Racing in RL is hard. LFS is supposed to be a simulator. It's not Gran Turismo or anything else where you get 1000pts for a 1st place.

These aren't season points, going head to head agains't other racers -- they are license points. I'm slow but I raced clean for a few hours the other night and ended up with 8 points. I raced reasonably well and got next to nothing for it. There were 3 or 4 platinum guys on the entire time, virtually eliminating any chance of anyone else getting points. That doesn't make sense.

Quote from Becky Rose :

ROFL Kev, fancy camping GT2 for a bit? I have a cleric...

Nah I haven't got teh GT2 expansion + my double-hobbit tickle mimic is only lvl 2. Need 200 more laps.

Quote from Slopi :

My intentions were made clear. It's not about the rewards, it's about moving away from the constant T1 wrecks, attitudes and nightmares that are associated with a server that is generally open to the public. Regardless of 'standards', these problems still exist.

Didn't I hear that all the old bans have been nixed? If so, it might just take a while for reports to get dealt with and the lowest tier servers will begin to clean up.

I understand where you're coming from, but what you're suggesting would result in essentially sacrificing one server to the crackheads and airlifting out everybody who's shown a willingness to lift for yellow flags. While I wouldn't want to condemn you to lapping with the lead-footed T1 chargers forever, I don't think it makes much sense to have a server that is basically a no-go zone either. I think the reports will sort it out in time.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

When all's said and done it's a racing sim - it should reward racing.

Looking at this thread I'm seeing a lot of people complaining about not get any gold coins for finishing races, but are you actually enjoying the races? If all you're doing is driving around in circles for fifteen minutes so you can open the chest and find out how many gold pieces Becky gave you then I think you've got your priorities screwed up a bit.

Heh. No, it's not about gold coins, Kev, but I can understand how it might be construed that way.

I tried to explain things as best I could from the perspective of someone just starting out in a previous post, so I'll put a link in here just to avoid duplication.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=495400#post495400

... and post #19 above gives a good example of why some folk can become a little demoralised.

It's not so much about collecting all the coins just to 'finish the game' so to speak, it's more about genuine concerns (maybe justified and admittedly, maybe not) over never being able participate fully in all of the fine elements that the CTRA has to offer.

isnt the problem with not gaining licence points much more about not being able to drive something different than about not being able to drive on servers with faster people ?
personally i can only stomach driving the fox for so long (usually about 10 laps) before i need to leave and get into something thats fun to drive

i dont see why there cant be a 2 dimensional licence system with servers tiered both by pace and experience

I think that one of the problems, is that being on pace in the single seaters (like track record pace) is more difficult, so if the threshold for track record to score points was maybe increased a bit, it might make points more fair?

I would of thought it to be easier to just raise the point goal to next license to a higher amount of points, then raise the point payout for the winners and top 5, but still be able to give something like 1-2 points from spots 5-10. That way at least SOME progress is made, consistancy still counts at least on larger grids, and people feel like they're making some progress in the system. Much like the previous system, except less generous. As is, it's usually the same 5 people in the top 5 each race.

I did the math though. I have 6 points (I KNOW, RIGHT!!) and that puts me at 2% till the next license. So, only 294 more points to go! That means 294 races at 5th place, and even less if I can manage to get to a higher position. I dunno, but that seems like a hell of a lot of work. I know it's not supposed to be easy, but I wouldn't think that I should have to relive my days of MMORPG grinding in a racing sim either

does the track record get updated even if the driver setting it doesnt finish the race/started from the pits ?

Quote from Slopi :

I would of thought it to be easier to just raise the point goal to next license to a higher amount of points, then raise the point payout for the winners and top 5, but still be able to give something like 1-2 points from spots 5-10. That way at least SOME progress is made, consistancy still counts at least on larger grids, and people feel like they're making some progress in the system. Much like the previous system, except less generous. As is, it's usually the same 5 people in the top 5 each race.

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That would be fine, I usually end up between 10th and 4th, it often depends if there was a big mess or no .

Just to clear up, at the moment you do get points for 5th and beyond. However it is a multiplyer so whilst lap times are outside of something like 106% (I forget without looking) then no points are scored.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Just to clear up, at the moment you do get points for 5th and beyond. However it is a multiplyer so whilst lap times are outside of something like 106% (I forget without looking) then no points are scored.

Must be the hotlappers that kept us from getting points then.

Sorry Sam and Becky, but your points system for the single seaters needs some serious rework.

I can understand people complaining a bit when they drive a nice clean race, come 8th or 9th, and get no points, but today I raced FOX at SO Town, came SECOND after a nice CLEAN race..(about 10-12 in field) and got ZERO POINTS!!! The guy who WON didn't get any points either!!!
We were BOTH on the grid at the start, and ended up 1st and second...but no points because 'our laptimes were not fast enough'

Come on, sort it out please or a lot of people wont bother racing for points, if they know they have no chance of getting any!

Quote from Bladerunner :

Come on, sort it out please or a lot of people wont bother racing for points, if they know they have no chance of getting any!

And is this whole thing only about points? I thought its about clean racing in full grid and maybe then about progress in your license to drive faster and more difficult cars.

There are four factors, the number of cars on the grid at race start, position, pace and race length.

Pace is measured against the circuit record for the class of car you are driving, the margin is quite generous really when you consider that the points system is designed to bring through quick drivers to race against each other on higher tiers.

Cleanliness is rewarded on the CTRA in another way, aside from the stats we track you have the advantage of being allowed to race on the servers. Although we dont get it, we do require for everybody to race clean - so really there isn't a special reward for doing so. The points, following looking at how the old system fell over, is about performance and cleanlines in order to progress.

I havn't done a comprehensive study, but i've looked at the lap times of some of the people who have aired their concerns over low points on the forums. I note that some of them are as much as 10-15 seconds off the pace.

This is a huge margin.

You may be clean, and I thank you for adhering to the server rules, but your not fast. That's not to say you cant be with more practice - but that kind of pace is not really tier 2 stuff.

Why race on tier 2 and have your exhaust handed back to you on a plate just because you did a lot of races?

Why not enjoy the racing on tier 1 whilst you are at that level of speed, and when you find that you are going quicker - tier 2 will just happen.

Quote from SpikeyMarcoD :

I am thinking now its a lot more difficult to get points under X.

I am actually thinking the same thing believe it or not... however, points seem to be evenly distributed in this system...

I've only played a total of 2 days now, and about 20 +/- races, and won a good portion of those too. However, in the time that I briefly visit, I can really only gain about 100-150 pts a day. If I kept playing all day I could surely earn more, but that is how it works. The top 5 have already played really well in the single seaters, and look at Becky at the #1 spot... because she has done easily over 100+ races!!! I don't even think wins matter much for points the more I look at it, it just helps to have accumulated points in any of the races you enter, and you can keep moving up the ladder, pretty easy. And if I remember correctly, I never saw Becky in the single seater chart yesterday, but then today I noticed she had 500+ points @ #1 spot. That is A LOT to gain in one day... so there is a perfect example.

The more you retire and quit a race, of course you are going to fall back in earning points. I think the idea is for everyone to finish a race, win or lose... because that doesn't matter much apparently. Which I am ok with.

My 2nd day is now over and 287 points is not so bad to have so far. Plenty other players will get way more points than me if they race twice the amount I normally do. So I think it is a fair tradeoff for everyone to be honest.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Just to clear up, at the moment you do get points for 5th and beyond. However it is a multiplyer so whilst lap times are outside of something like 106% (I forget without looking) then no points are scored.

Ahaaaa, wait a minute.

*plink* [penny finally drops inside dungbeetle's tiny brain]

Didn't know about the 106% thing!

So, points don't just depend upon positions and/or lap times, they depend on positions in conjunction with lap times!

... and why is this, I ask myself? ... because otherwise we could all potter 'round the track at 30mph, suckin' up podium points irrespective of speed.

Sorry - this must all be blindingly obvious to the UKCT veterans around here but it's something I hadn't even considered until now.

So this might explain obsolum's situation in post #19 above if, in spite of finishing 4th, he was still too far off the lap record to make it count.

I think part of the problem (for me at least) is not understanding properly the conditions under which points are awarded.

Maybe if people understood this better, they would at least know why they are not scoring points and would realise what they needed to achieve in order to get them.

Becky, is there anywhere where the point scoring system is explained in a bit more detail? Not the detailed calculations obviously, but maybe just the principles?

EDIT: Oh, RATS! - I was still drafting this while Becky posted at #38 above!

Quote from Bladerunner :

Come on, sort it out please or a lot of people wont bother racing for points, if they know they have no chance of getting any!

...shouldn't they really be racing for fun?

Quote from Becky Rose :

You may be clean, and I thank you for adhering to the server rules, but your not fast. That's not to say you cant be with more practice - but that kind of pace is not really tier 2 stuff.

Why race on tier 2 and have your exhaust handed back to you on a plate just because you did a lot of races?

Why not enjoy the racing on tier 1 whilst you are at that level of speed, and when you find that you are going quicker - tier 2 will just happen.

Yep. Understand and accept that 100%, Becky. It makes total sense.

To be honest though, I think most people's concerns revolve around the fact that if they can't make the grade, the types of cars they can drive on the CTRA servers will remain limited.

I'm afraid that you guys have made such a good job of it, that people just don't wanna have to go anywhere else to race ... and you can take that as a compliment.

I hasten to add however, that it's hard to think of a solution for that, and I appreciate that you've got to have some kind of structure in place.

Quote from Jakg :

...shouldn't they really be racing for fun?

Well, yeah of course, and racing on CTRA is quite fun when there's good drivers on that use their brains in T1. But doing your very best to hold on to a top 5 position for the entire race and then not getting any points, while the guy 3 places in front of you gets 16 (even though he's Gold licensed and driving the XFG) and even the guy behind you gets a point or two because he did a few faster laptimes can take a lot of that fun right out of it IMO.

Quote from Bladerunner :

Come on, sort it out please or a lot of people wont bother racing for points, if they know they have no chance of getting any!

Quote from Jakg :

...shouldn't they really be racing for fun?

Yes Jak, but unfortunately the points do matter if you eventually want to drive other cars on the CTRA servers.

Quote from faster111 :

In RL racing you see people get points all the way down to 10th/15th/whatever-th place. These are annual competitions with a limited amount of races. At the end of the year it's a fresh slate. Why don't they do it in CTRAX

Most world class and probably national series only usually score points between 6-8. Some work a backward points system where the winner takes 0 or 1 point/s, lowest scorer wins.

I can't believe people are complaining because it's `too` hard to score points and now there is no incentive to race. We'll where's the incentive in getting points for coming last? Or in this case for being 3 seconds a lap off the pace?

Surely the motivation should be to improve your driving to a standard that you can compete for the points, rather than get points for the sake of getting points. As if your not scoring points in the current system then chances are your not of the ability to move onto the next level.

Quote from keiran :

Most world class and probably national series only usually score points between 6-8. Some work a backward points system where the winner takes 0 or 1 point/s, lowest scorer wins.

I can't believe people are complaining because it's `too` hard to score points and now there is no incentive to race. We'll where's the incentive in getting points for coming last? Or in this case for being 3 seconds a lap off the pace?

Surely the motivation should be to improve your driving to a standard that you can compete for the points, rather than get points for the sake of getting points. As if your not scoring points in the current system then chances are your not of the ability to move onto the next level.

well i i got points on the bump server last night and on the racing one i can't now its weird what do u say now?

Quote from dungbeetle :

Yep. Understand and accept that 100%, Becky. It makes total sense.

To be honest though, I think most people's concerns revolve around the fact that if they can't make the grade, the types of cars they can drive on the CTRA servers will remain limited.

I'm afraid that you guys have made such a good job of it, that people just don't wanna have to go anywhere else to race ... and you can take that as a compliment.

I hasten to add however, that it's hard to think of a solution for that, and I appreciate that you've got to have some kind of structure in place.

Well there might be a way... but thats up to them, more servers added or 3rd party servers connected to the system. Or changing the cars in the servers.

Well for me its just practice more i guess...1 point for effort is not in the cards i guess.

Quote from obsolum :

Well, yeah of course, and racing on CTRA is quite fun when there's good drivers on that use their brains in T1. But doing your very best to hold on to a top 5 position for the entire race and then not getting any points, while the guy 3 places in front of you gets 16 (even though he's Gold licensed and driving the XFG) and even the guy behind you gets a point or two because he did a few faster laptimes can take a lot of that fun right out of it IMO.

Precisely my point..I came 2nd..0 pts, the guy who came 3rd had ONE 'fast lap' out of 10, and scored points.. The guy who WON the race got nothing as well.!!

As for getting faster Becky...I was only 1- 1.5 secs off the pace EVERY lap


Nothing for consistency either then!

Just as a footnote..I _WAS_ using a clutch and shifter...(because I prefer driving 'properly'!)..and that IS a bit slower than autoclutch/paddle shifter!

Quote from Christofire :

The best advice I can give to anyone is to forget about the points.

As much as a lot of what you say is very wise, on this point, I for one, race here for a number of reasons including clean racing. To say forget about the points in my view is missing the point to many. What CTRA brought before and now, is a careermode to LFS that isn't there usually. To be able to progress, points are vital.

I totally agree with what the original poster has said. The new CTRA stystem is incredible in so many ways. After the first couple of days racing on the new system, the difficulty to get points, compared to the old system is really apparent.

BUMP servers

I have been playing a lot of bump servers this weekend and it's a lot of fun. When writing this I am currently 7th in the bump license ranking. I don't like the fact that I usually get the best position on the start due to having the best license points. Personally I think it should be random or worst license score gets the best. It's fairer to all that way. If you are good you should be able to make your way through the field.

Quote :

Just to clear up, at the moment you do get points for 5th and beyond.

I finished 5th at SO1 in the XFG last night and didn't get points. Was this because my pace was outside 106% or whatever of the record?

Also, today I gained 7th place from 18th on a Single Seater server. I think this should be rewarded, but again I got no points!

To me, this new system is far more demotivating for people like me who don't race for hours on end every day, but expect to be rewarded when we do race and put in a decent performance. This isn't WOW, I don't want to have to grind hour after hour.