Sorry, but this is ridiculous on a "sim". G25: engage gear stick into gear with no clutch, then press clutch and it selects! Also, occasional drops off in revs for no reason I can fathom.

The demo's worth an awful lot more than 'free', but despite it's physics shortcomings, you can buy GTL for £10 UK these days, and it has superior graphics, sound, AI (LFS' are pointless it seems to me) and a clutch that works and stalls....which is why I haven't upgraded LFS. Get the basics right first...surely??

Yes, we know, its a known to us, and its a known to scawen.

Its not "rediculous" Its just not implimented yet. Remember, this game isnt even into Beta status yet. This is one of the things that comes up often, along with the "nurburgring" (im not saying we will get that track) and Rain/Night racing Suggestions. Wait, it will come eventually. I think. As for graphics: Scawen has said, that this is NOT designed to be a screenshot generator. Its designed to be a sim. And to be honest, i dont have a problem with the sound either. The AI is getting an upgrade to S2 standards in the next patch (correct me if im talking rubbish on that). Trust me, if you pay the £24 for S2, you wont regret it.

/steve.

Buy GTL then.

P.S. When you go to suggest better physics in GTL, remember to search the forum first to see if anybody else has suggested it first.

Quote from Postman Pat :

A clutch that *works*???

A forum user that *searches* before making a new topic??...surely??

*face palm*

You do know that LFS S2 isn't even done yet? GTL is a released game, all finished. LFS isn't even out of Alpha stages.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Buy GTL then.

P.S. When you go to suggest better physics in GTL, remember to search the forum first to see if anybody else has suggested it first.

No, despite *GTL's* physics limitations.

I have GTL, and find it's almost completely unresponsiveness to inputs during a slide (presumably what people mean by "canned physics") which is precisely why I'm frustrated about the basics in LFS when it's physics is so good. Come on, a functional clutch in a sim isn't comparable to environmentals - night/rain.

But after a couple of weeks of LFS, I tried GTL again, and was frankly disappointed to find that these supposedly aesthetic irrelevances of graphics and sound actually add a huge amount to immersion and entertainment value for GTL. Probably over 50% of an action film is sound. It makes a huge difference.

"*face palm*"

See, this is why I like AI.

If you seriously think that the addition of a clutch and some eyecandy make GTL preferable over LFS then buy GTL, you're clearly somebody who likes the little attention to details rather than the basics. GTL isn't even using the ISI engine to its full extent, it's just a particularly bad ISI mod

Quote from Postman Pat :

I have GTL

Quote from ajp71 :

buy GTL

Anyway, as much as believable physics mean to me, I cannot find the immersion factor in LFS - apart from the physics, all the other "sims" give me a better feeling of actually being there. Unfortunately this means there's no sim good enough for me at the moment.

...which is essentially why I've suggested selling licenses to the physics engine to bigger companies who have the ability to build proper game environments, if not proper physics engines. You don't have to tell me why this won't happen, as it was covered in other threads, but one can dream.

@Batterypark - RBR is the only sim with good graphics and the other touches along with a decent (well actually bloody good) attempt at physics. I don't believe making a far more realistic sim is beyond SimBin or ISI, they already have a fairly crude engine that if realistic data is entered in can produce ok results and if it takes its FF from its physics it actually feels alright, it's a shame that it takes mods and plugins to get it anywhere though.

Quote from ajp71 :

If you seriously think that the addition of a clutch and some eyecandy make GTL preferable over LFS then buy GTL, you're clearly somebody who likes the little attention to details rather than the basics.....

It really does give the game away when people are reacting but clearly haven't even read what's written properly. I've said twice... I own GTL!

And how much more basic can you get than clutch? Steering? I'd have thought functional controls are the most basic of basics. If you think that doesn't matter, good luck with the missionary work on the GTL forums.

I don't like the term "eyecandy". We're talking sensory input here. It's what makes it real or not. Apart from physical forces (obviously) it's visual data and sound that makes the experience what it is in RL after all.

Btw, I'd actually prioritize sound improvements for LFS well ahead of visuals FWIW.

Quote from Postman Pat :

...and it has superior graphics...

It has a more avdanced graphics engine, but it looks less like real life than LFS does. I continually have people telling me that my screenshots look like photographs. The same cannot be said for GTL. It uses fancy shaders, but it looks pants.

I agree with you on the clutch thing, though.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

P.S. When you go to suggest better physics in GTL, remember to search the forum first to see if anybody else has suggested it first.

I can almost guarantee that it has not been suggested before, for GTL.

You have a point about the clutch, but unless leaving the pits or end up in the grass, there is no reason to NEED to be able to stall the car accidentally. It's not a main priority IMO, its just somthing to look forward to in the future.
Also, if graphics sound and AI is all you want, then noone is stoping you from doing what ever you choose

Edit: LFS is called alfa 'cause the devs choose to call it that. If it was really in alfa development it would be free, its definatly past beta by developmental standards

If it would be beta, then there would be no more stuff added to it, only testing and finding out bugs and if it would be final release then there would be no bugs at all, that is how those are meant, however most software is released as beta today but called final, which I find stupid.

Some people seem to think that alpha or beta is quality levels, they should learn bit more what these terms do mean in programming...

Quote from Postman Pat :

And how much more basic can you get than clutch? Steering? I'd have thought functional controls are the most basic of basics. If you think that doesn't matter, good luck with the missionary work on the GTL forums.

Having no modeled simulation of a clutch is far better than trying to simulate clutch slip and clutch bite through a couple of numbers chosen until it feels 'right' in some ini file. When LFS gets clutch modeling done I'd expect real differences between the different cars properly modeled clutch slip and wear.

Scawen is only one man, he can only work on one aspect of the game at a time. For the vast majority of the community clutch simulation is irrelevant because 3 pedals isn't the norm. Only recently has logitech made a 3 pedal system affordable.

I'd rather see work done to the core of the physics engine personally, but that's because I don't have a clutch pedal .

Go, play GTL. What a bargain it must be at £10... When’s the next patch due? Oh, sorry is that ver 2? How much will that cost then

Keiran

you can't honestly say GTL is a good game... its the biggest disappointment i have EVER had with a game... it really is just dire...

Old cars racing a NEW age 'legends' series, its just downhill from THERE

A less charitable person would probably say 'fan-boys still can't read'. :rolleyes:

It's not just about stalling. You can move the gear stick into gear WITHOUT the clutch and THEN put your foot on the clutch AFTERWARDS and it THEN selects the gear. :nut:


QUOTE: "Scawen is only one man..."

Well, they can do remarkable things in genetics these days, but I think there are even easier solutions. The situation's not an act of God, is it?

QUOTE: "I'd rather see work done to the core of the physics engine personally,......"

Really? I think LFS' physics is very good. Did you hear that everyone...get him!! Maybe you should try GTL then...I hear that's quite good.

Seriously folks, LFS has a lot of good things. But it seems the priorities are a bit bizarre looking at all the suggestions. I'd recommend they ignore them all except mine.

And I know it's not what's intended, but I'd like an AI I can race with. On-line racers, can't be relied upon to be realistically responsible.

I know... :bike:

Byee ...

Quote from Postman Pat :

And I know it's not what's intended, but I'd like an AI I can race with. On-line racers, can't be relied upon to be realistically responsible.

They can in S2, which is why we usually don't bother with the Ai...

Remember, until very recently, very few people had a clutch pedal, its only since the G25 has been out that a clutch has started to be more important. Thats why it wasnt a major thing on scawen's list.

yeah the gear change and clutch needs a massive amount of work, im not disagreeing with that.

Pat (love your show, BTW), the reason you got a hostile response is because this has been discussed several times before, so this thread represents yet another duplicate in the improvement suggestions forum (90% or more of the threads in here are repeat topics, so you're sadly not alone).

As for the AI: They are a priority, apparently. Scawen has said he intends to work on the AI in the near future. We don't know if it will be patch Y or later, but it definitely is high on the list.

Quote from Postman Pat :

Get the basics right first...surely??

Do some research before posting...surely??

Quote from Postman Pat :

It's not just about stalling. You can move the gear stick into gear WITHOUT the clutch and THEN put your foot on the clutch AFTERWARDS and it THEN selects the gear.

Yes, the current clutch system is too passive. The discrepancy to real life comes from the fact that LFS cannot force the physical gearstick out of gear, and Scawen chose to interpret the selected gear as a "force pushing the gearstick into that direction", as well as non-matching cogwheel speeds as a lock for engaging, and a loaded transmission as a lock for disengaging.

All this together allows the "preselection" gear-change method, because when you're accelerating hard for example in 3rd and then put your physical stick into 4th, LFS basically applies the "force" to move its internal gearstick to 4th, but because the transmission is under load it won't let the gear out of 3rd. Then when you clutch the load from the transmission is relieved which makes the gear jump out into neutral and immediately into 4th, because the "force" is still applied.
This also has the funny effect of your gear sometimes jumping out if you try to do this preselection shift while jumping over kerbs (the transmission unloads, lets you out of 3rd but you're not clutching in, so you stay in neutral)

Quote from Gunn :

Do some research before posting...surely??

That's already been posted - really should read the threads. (Was finished but can't resist shooting fish in a barrel). And anyway, despite all these threads, patch X has just been released and the manual seems to think everything is peachy with the G25.

AndroidXP: Interesting. That explains a few other irregularities. Thing is. In the heat of battle, it's quite easy to get the shift and clutching out of time - which I only first recognized when I tried GTL again.

Thisnameistaken: Thanks! Hope I haven't put you off my show.

Anyway...

Quote from Postman Pat :

and the manual seems to think everything is peachy with the G25.

...and? The manual is a community driven thing and i wrote most of the wheel page, if theres a problem i'd appreciate you telling me so i can fix it.