As we all konw , LFS doesn't have any penalty for driving assistance...


assist option and transmission type should go under each car's setup menu

example

1. auto & sequential mission = + 10 kg

2. brake help = + 5 kg

3. throttle help = + 5 kg

4. auto clutch = + 5 kg : if u dont use this assist, u can stall your engine and u will get new "engine start" button for that. ( 3-5 sec delay for restart)

5. auto lift = + 5 kg

6. auto blip = + 5 kg


10 - 25 kg penalty is not a big deal for your lap time.

but it makes tiny difference between who does and doesn't

with this feature we dont have to force assist option for league players.



and i think we also need "pure weight peanlty system" for league which can set by host admin to each player (according to last race results, 20-50 kg winner's penalty)

There could be more than just weight penalties. Maybe the reliability for the different kinds of transmissions would be different too. And where do you need auto blip/lift if you are using sequental transmission?

Hard to get these balanced right and LFS doesn't support (yet) all these, like the engine stalling. But when it does, I'll hope that there is some kind of manual clutch available in the starts even if you don't want to use clutch all the time, or don't have 3rd pedal like me

IMO the automatic gearbox should have a greater weight disadvantage (as in IRL) than the sequential one. if you have a sequential one, you'll still have to shift by yourself plus it's rather uncommon the see e.g. the MRT with a H-shifter... but nice idea

Quote from hind75 :

As we all konw , LFS doesn't have any penalty for driving assistance...


assist option and transmission type should go under each car's setup menu

example

1. auto & sequential mission = + 10 kg

2. brake help = + 5 kg

3. throttle help = + 5 kg

4. auto clutch = + 5 kg : if u dont use this assist, u can stall your engine and u will get new "engine start" button for that. ( 3-5 sec delay for restart)

5. auto lift = + 5 kg

6. auto blip = + 5 kg


10 - 25 kg penalty is not a big deal for your lap time.

but it makes tiny difference between who does and doesn't

with this feature we dont have to force assist option for league players.



and i think we also need "pure weight peanlty system" for league which can set by host admin to each player (according to last race results, 20-50 kg winner's penalty)

Throttle help is slower anyway, so no need to worry about that. Brake help should be more intrusive than it is, making it impossible to stop as quickly as you could without it, that would solve that "issue" too.

Auto-clutch (with a paddle shift-system) is an advantage over 3rd pedal+shifter, in that you can make flawlessly consistent changes.......but it's a disadvantage because you cannot for example change down from 5th to 2nd, I don't know if faster shifts can be made with a clutch pedal or not now, haven't checked since S2 was released.

Auto-lift is slower, so no need to add further penalty.

Auto-blip is not a performance enhancing aid, it doesn't make you any quicker, and you can't even rely on it to blip perfectly anyway. Blipping with auto-clutch is not like what you'd do if you had a 3rd pedal, so it's not like you're taking a step towards realism if you turn it off.

Nice idea, but it need some rethinking.

@Herki, Auto-box is wayyy slower than "manually" changing, no need for a penalty.

Auto-blip does make it a lot easier to drive some cars if ya don't know how to blip manually, so I think it should carry a penalty.

Throttle help may be slower, but it is also easier. Any aid that makes something easier than for others imo should carry a penalty regardless if it makes the car slower..

By your logic wheel drivers should get a weight penalty because it's easier to drive than with mouse or keyboard.

Really, it doesn't make any sense and the current helps don't help that much at all. Maybe it makes LFS a bit more driveable for the controller-handicapped (kb/mouse) but in no way gives it an unfair advantage to them. I mean, wheel drivers who really need these aids to be able to drive are far away from being competitive. Such a aid-weight-penalty system would only theoretically create an artifical "fairness" amongst the drivers, which wouldn't have anything to do with how it works in practice.

The LFS driving aids:

Throttle help: Useless in a slower car, may help you stop one of the faster rear drive mosters from spinning but is by no means quicker so I don't think it should carry a penalty.

Brake help: If you use a high brake force value like I do and control the pedal (which is probably optimum because if you set up a car to always be able to slam on the brakes, then you would loose out in some places - hills generally need brake pedal balancing in order to get the best time), brake help slows you down because it is quite intrusive for my liking. Someone said it should be made even more intrusive... I don't think so because in racing one would use less intrusive brake help as the road is all good quality tarmac with no dust on it.

Auto Clutch: All the auto-clutchers started complaining that the button-clutchers had an advantage over them because they could shift quicker in S1. So in S2 button-clutchers have a hard time shifting and gain no advantage for it. This doesn't make any sense to me. Now I am using auto-clutch because it carries no real penalty but I believe it should, in which case I would return to button-clutch.

Throttle cut: This can make a fast car easier to drive if you shift on low gears because it ALWAYS lifts the throttle, but you pay the price for it because you loose out on speed on the straights. Once we have gearbox damage, it should carry some kind of penalty though...

Throttle blip: More accurate manually - you can change your technique on slopes and use engine braking to balance the brake distribution. It can again make fast RWD cars easier to drive but still not as fast.

Basically all driver aids at the moment can be out-performed by a good experienced driver apart from Auto-Clutch. This IMO should carry some form of penalty.

Quote from AndroidXP :

By your logic wheel drivers should get a weight penalty because it's easier to drive than with mouse or keyboard.

Nah not what I meant. I'm a lot faster with mouse & keyb than a wheel because I find the wheel and pedals more difficult to drive with. If I would compare my driving with nouse&keyb vs wheel, the former would need a rather hefty weight penalty to keep up with the latter. With some cars I have to use some driving aids to make it easier to to be competitive (but no doubt that with craploads of practice I would eventually be anyway). Maybe you find it easier to drive with a wheel, with about half the cars, I don't.

Ideally, I'd prefer not to have any weight penalty for assist. Instead, it should be based on average laptimes, where only the fastes get added-on weight no matter what aids they're using.

Well, I can agree with some sort of handicap system for leagues, etc., to make the field more even and fun for everyone, but anyways, the penaltys have then to be given out per person, not after a general rule like he uses aid x and drives laptime y. I'd only give someone a penalty if he's really an alien and consistently drives away from everybody else, but not because he got a lucky hotlap.

And if you're not able to keep up with the guys on a server you should look for an other server with more people in your skill range, not artificially "dumb down" their skill so you can catch them. They didn't get their skill by luck or magic, they had to practise for it like everybody else.

League weight penalties for finetuning the field =
Automatic weight penalties for the "too fast" guys on publics = :thumbsdow

I think brake & throttle help penalty is not about fast or slow , its about tire conservation which is critical at endurance race. ( and that's a one of reasons many RL races banned ABS/TCS )

and those parts should have "some" weights of course ( yes! they are some metal parts..)

everyone knows auto(and semi auto) transmission heavier than manual , non-ABS/TCS car slightly lighter than equipped car

more instrument = more weight , its simple

Why yes, of course an auto-tranny is heavier and less efficient than a manual clutch - the problem is we don't have an auto transmission car. What we have is a (in RL non-existing) shift help, which more or less chooses the right gear for us to drive in, but in no way it resembles the functionality of a real auto transmission.

Same goes for TH and BH. They are both artificial helps that don't exist in real life, and are also far less effective than true ABS and Throttle Control. They are input modifiers, not actually things working on the brakes or each wheel.

IF Scawen finally implements the real life counterparts of those aids then yes, they by any means should have the corresponding weight penalties. But now I think it would be useless.


Also, I cannot agree that the aids actually help more on the higher powered cars. The helps are IMO far too simple and rough to to help much, or do you think repeatedly pumping the loud pedal is such a good idea on a 500 hp car? I think they're good enough for the road cars, but they really don't cut it for the race counterparts.

Quote from hind75 :

and those parts should have "some" weights of course ( yes! they are some metal parts..)

Quote from AndroidXP :

IF Scawen finally implements the real life counterparts of those aids then yes, they by any means should have the corresponding weight penalties. But now I think it would be useless.

But even then, if a car comes equipped with TC and ABS, regardless of whether you have those things switched on or not, the car will weigh the same, so any weight penalty would have to be added with ballast.

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

Throttle help may be slower, but it is also easier. Any aid that makes something easier than for others imo should carry a penalty regardless if it makes the car slower..

What better penalty for using an aid which makes driving easier is there than the fact that the aid itself makes you slower? No one is going to use Throttle Help in an endurance race anyway, it's slower, if you think it should be slower still, that's fine, but no need to add weight to the car as a form of penalty, it's the performance of the aid that needs looking at.

Quote from sinbad :

But even then, if a car comes equipped with TC and ABS, regardless of whether you have those things switched on or not, the car will weigh the same, so any weight penalty would have to be added with ballast.

True that, but I'm more thinking of choosing between a car with these things equipped or not, instead of just switching the aids on and off.

Oh and btw, should TC ever be implemented in LFS, then it shouldn't be the F1 race quality TC but rather civil "safety" TC. The one that brakes the car down if you go too fast into a corner and generally makes driving less fun. The one that's switched off ASAP (if possible) when taking the car to a racetrack

Due to my feelings on Traction Control, ABS and other big girls blouse aids, I am going to resist the urge to say stuff here. But...

Quote from AndroidXP :

should TC ever be implemented in LFS, then it shouldn't be the F1 race quality TC but rather civil "safety" TC. The one that brakes the car down if you go too fast into a corner and generally makes driving less fun. The one that's switched off ASAP (if possible) when taking the car to a racetrack

I agree with this. Lets not make LFS too easy, because then people won't play it for 3 years and counting, and will disappear for the next easy race game.

I don't use any aids but I would never want to see the people who do get penalised for it.

They are only using the aids to help them get closer to competitive times, I suspect if you then hit them with weight penalities they would simply go play another game where they can have fun and not be treated like a leper.

Implementing penalities for league play is an entirely different kettle of fish, though.

Quote from hind75 :

1. auto & sequential mission = + 10 kg

Why penalise for Sequential transmission. Most GT cars and single seaters have sequential gear boxes IRL. So why should that be penalised?

I agree with nikimere, the sequential transmission shoud not have a weight penalty as it's more or less standard in most of the higher levels of racing.

And as for the autoclutch, most of us need it, with most being those without a third pedal, and also it doesn't make that much of a difference.

By the way that's a cool screenshot of the mini on two wheels nikimere

yes, i think no weight penalties should be added for this. Most of hardware configs allow advantages and disavantages. I think you can be faster with 3rd pedal for clutch, but as we said in reality, manual gear allows to have less weight. I guess we shall instead point out again wight penalties like WTCC ones to level racers and have more fun, but this would be used for leagues, where you can decide weight penalties looking at race results.

Someone who uses automatic gears, isn't probably much of a driver anyway - (s)he shouldn't create much of a challenge for someone using manual gears.

No reason to get offended though - I use auto gears too, and the above is true about me at least.

Quote from hind75 :

1. auto & sequential mission = + 10 kg

I use sequential shifting because I'm not going to spend €100 on a shifter that won't make me much faster at all. It's a bit dumb to penalty someone for sequential shifting.