Quote from Speed Soro :

Scawen, Victor and Erick, (...) you could concentrate yourselves in that is most important, that is, gain market.

HAHAHAHAHA, rofl... yeah sure, cause that is what they aim at. Market. Make money. That's their main purpose of LFS.... If it was, they would have stopped development by now, cause they got some nice bunch of money through S2-licences sold. All the fuzz about nkPro (with a yet untested MP), all the ISI sh1t is fun. There were other Sims coming to market last year, and year b4 that, and in contrary to every other sim, LFS gained people. always. constant.
I do understand some of your points, and I'd vote for some additional coder maybe for GFX-engine departement, but the way you post it is kind of ridiculous, cause the Devs owe you nothing except a Full S2 Version SOME day.

When reading this, a quote comes to mind:

Quote from Scawen :

LFS is not a democracy!

Like Paul says, we can only show you things when we have them, and we don't show all we have, and we don't reveal all our plans...

Quote from Scawen :

Hehe thanks guys

Yes i must admit it's not a democracy, more of a friendly dictatorship. I hope George W. Bush doesn't read that!

We aren't really short of things to do though, and not short of time to do them, though that will be a long time if you see what i mean. As we've always said we want to go in developing for a long time.

One maybe interesting fact about why we can get quite a lot done (per person) compared with some large teams, is that we mainly do what we feel like doing, that's how we can get the motivation to do long nights and so on. If we worked to someone else's list, we'd be less motivated (morale issues are a common problem in large companies). In fact our main reason for being self-employed is that we can do what we want to to (aside from annoying bugs i'm having to fix half the time of course). We believe in that way of working, to keep ourselves sane. That's also why we don't have fixed plans set in stone for future releases. That may annoy some people but we think it's best to be very flexible and see what ideas come up and look good any time.

(This was all posted on RSC from threads saying they wanted updates, and that the people should have power over the devs to make them post pics and stuff :zombie: )

Very well said from our developer 'master' I might add :up:

He is kind of right, the sounds are far better on games like GTR, as are the graphics. The main thing that gets me though is the high nose on the formula cars, its a known bug, and one that has been in the game ages. I hate using the high nose as there is no feel in the car, but to be competitive you have to use it.

I really enjoy the tracks, and dont feel we need more as such, but a few other non turbo cars would be nice.

Also, Live For Speed really is an amazing game, but a bit more marketing would be good to draw a new crowd. It not only gives an advantage by producing more cash for the devs, but it also give more people for us to race with.

TBH, I really don't think the devs are interested to hear marketing strategy advice from people who don't know what their marketing strategy is to begin with. IMHO whatever they're doing works - look at the size and talent of the LFS community compared to that of every other new sim (good old GPL's community is still the benchmark for me ). Look at the numbers online at just about any time of day in any time zone. I have no idea how LFS is being marketed (or if it is at all) but people are buying it and getting involved in it like no other sim I can think of.

As for the game suggestions/bugs, they've pretty much been flogged to death in the improvement/bugs sections and the devs would have to be blind not to know what people want fixed/changed/added.

I'm convinced Victor, Eric and Scawen know what they're doing (and what they need to do) with LFS a lot better than anyone in the LFS community. I've never created or marketed a highly successful game or product, and because of that I won't be handing out unwanted advice to the devs (even if I did have some ) For me, this forum is to discuss the game and all related matters, share info/files, report problems, suggest improvements etc., not to tell the devs what to do with their product.

Thanks. It's simple enough, LFS exists because we chose a way of working, to take our time and make the program we want. The design decisions and direction are led by interest, our ideas and experiments and also influenced a lot by requests and ideas from the community.

The money that we can make, although an important consideration, is simply not the primary driving force. If it was, then we should do something completely different, something mainstream. There are a lot of easier ways to make money. We're doing this because we like what we do. We don't want to change our partnership, form a limited company, start hiring programmers, artists, receptionists and accountants. That's not what we're here for and it's not why LFS exists. We've specifically left that kind of job.

Making a racing sim takes a long time. It's taken so much time for so many years, that we have allowed the rest of our lives and houses to decay a bit around us. So, it's sometimes a bit hard to take, when we see the amount of attacks that we receive when we take a bit of time to sort things out. I just can't understand what's the rush! We're working on a sim, which gets updated every few months. Sometimes progress is faster than at other times. You get things in the end. Most people understand that, they are happy to have the sim in its current state. But a few people are so impatient, it's amazing, and they have to come up with all these ideas about how we should do things differently, change our lives, even give up our whole lives and anything we want to do, in order to grow LFS as fast as possible. But from our point of view that's just quite strange really.

I shouldn't really need to explain this again, but i can see that the impatience level is rising again. Just relax, there will be new physics at some point when i've had time to work on the aero and the tyres, involving plenty of experimentation and testing. There will be updates from Eric as well. How long it will take, i don't know. If LFS bores you for now, just do something else for a while. You'll get a news letter from us when there's a patch.

Thanks to those who do explain this to people. It's a strange effect, this impatience thing, it seems to be seen often in gaming communities, a few angry guys putting huge pressure on developers for release dates, immense anger when the dates slip or features are cut, then it's even worse when things are rushed out before they are really finished. Gamers need to understand that it just takes a long time to write computer games and simulations. And always longer, year after year, as the complexity increases.

Yes, thank you Scawen for pointing this out that your not making this game purely to make cash. The approach you take on making this game is why LFS has become so great. :yipee:

Quote from Scawen :

The money that we can make, although an important consideration, is simply not the primary driving force. If it was, then we should do something completely different, something mainstream. There are a lot of easier ways to make money. We're doing this because we like what we do. We don't want to change our partnership, form a limited company, start hiring programmers, artists, receptionists and accountants. That's not what we're here for and it's not why LFS exists. We've specifically left that kind of job.

This just makes me think of the phrase "LFS: Giving the finger to the man, one useless job description at a time" Sorry if thats completely wrong

Keep up the good work Scawen To be honest, I wish I had the balls to get up one day, and do what all 3 of you have done - basically walking out of a job and doing it for yourselves. Its really nice to see what you can pull out of the bag

Thanks for the feedback Scawen.

But I have to agree with Soro here. He has valid points: in an unusual way, we are receiving A LOT of good racing sims lately. And while this is good for us, sim racers, it makes people shy away from LFS. Because right now they have a better product elsewhere. When we try to talk about LFS, people will just say: sim? That doesn't feel like a real car, so why should it be called a sim (talking about RWD cars)? And basically, we can't refute that.

I understand the spirit and the soul of LFS. That makes me like it a lot. But well, LFS is a product. People pay money for the product. And people get upset when the product fails to deliver the expectations. This is somehow starting to happen with LFS.

I own GTL, will buy NKP and I am looking forward to GTR2. If they can fix the netcode, that will be a really fun experience to have. For you who doesn't like GTR or say that LFS is THE best without looking to other products, know you are wrong. In Brasil, the GTR league (www.gtrbrasil.com) has a lot of professional drivers there. And a couple of them already played LFS. What is their opinion? That LFS has a lot of flaws in physics and that the setup part of the game isn't working how it does in real life. And they see that part of SIMULATION in the product I mentioned above.

Sorry about the long post, but while LFS is a great GAME, it IS losing space to other product that are being launched right now. And because of that, I believe the devs should aim their goals more directly. What could happen if they don't, and they probably won't (as Scawen said): the community will become smaller, until it gets to the point where the devs can't make a iving from this title. Yes, that is worst case scenario, but it is a possibility.

Take this as a constructive criticism and not as free flaming aimed to the devs or the game or the community. After all, I am a big fan of the product and I am a part of the community as well.

Didn't you read Scawen's post? It seems pretty clear the guys know what they're doing and how they're going to continue it. It's also clear they won't be swayed by people expecting things they have no right to expect, no matter how much those people love the game. Of course, if someone was a shareholder in "LFS Pty Ltd", they would have the right to expect profits, dividends, a more effective or pro-active marketing campaign, quicker updates etc. and all on schedule. As noone is such a shareholder, noone has the right to demand anything of the devs or to give them business advice.

Also, with all the new sims that have been released lately, it's no surprise to me that LFS may be losing some sales - you can't expect LFS to have a monopoly on race sims and I'm sure the devs don't either (and I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm wrong). As an alpha produced by 3 men, LFS isn't even finished yet and it's competing brilliantly with big-budget, big-studio games that are complete and finished. That in itself is a great advertisement. The entire LFS worldwide community - including this forum and all the other LFS sites, all the teams, comps, skinners, renderers, addon makers, everyone who's paid for it and anyone else I haven't mentioned - is also testament to its quality and popularity. Simply: gamers are fussy, and if LFS wasn't good it wouldn't be around and we'd all be playing (and talking about) something else.

I think people should chill out and let the devs get on it with it, at their own pace and in their own time. Their work methods have produced everything we know and love about LFS so far (and for a very reasonable price, I might add) and I don't think they should "step up" anything.

cheers
.h.

I think that most of those complains are because several language related patches were released, when most of the problem with lfs weren't language support, but some few physics bugs that sometimes are annoying. Language support is more a cherry on the top of the cake than a real need.


IMO, sound and graphics improvements would be good, but they are not needed right now, but what we need is to get those annoying aero bugs sorted as soon as possible (and some bugs related with penalties that I don't know if it was already reported, about drive through penalty assinged by an admin that when paid not always it's recoginized as paid, but that's a subject for another topic), and we can wait a bit more for the other improvements.



And I also think that this rush for improvements is due to the fact that we already have a great base (the immersion that it provides is just great, we can feel connected to the car so much in a way that no other simulator gives, that we in Brazil call it the "LFSsensation" ), and LFS have potential to be the best simulator by a far margin. We really hope that LFS achieve that.

Which keeps me thinking maybe LFS is better off as a cult project rather than a full on commerical project, sooner or later it will sufficate it's soul.
It's a worst case scenario as well but that's also a possibility.

You know, there're plenty of good sims out there doing the main-stream thing, then why on earth, when we know our strength is in the freedom of development and support of the community- that we should take on all of them when we have an disadvantage by design? The game progress slower not because there's a problem, it's how it was designated to be, which is something the devs decided to give away in favour or something else - which leads to the current success.

When LFS's was first out the game has NOTHING, S1 didn't smoke the competition at all, it had no tire heat, no tire wear, and one single suspension type, but still the community grows. objectively speaking actually we are at a much stronger position with S2, since back in the S1 days we were already facing the golden era of ISI mods, and in comparison the development we have far exceeds what they had.

If there's something I worry about, it'll be LFS falling into a dilemma in finding it's position, you know catering the mainstream market and in the same time preserving the dev's control on the project. Not everything in the world has to be perfect and be all conquering in the market, or else why would someone build the AC cobra? or the Lotus Europa?

I am not a fortune teller, but obviously if the worry is about the size of the community, and the money the devs can make. I think the fact that S2 actually EXISTS already proved that won't be a problem.

You heard the story about the Lotus Elan and Mazda Miata?

The Elan is a name with a lot of history, huge resources a poured in each generation and continue that fame. However from nowhere a small japanese company from Japan decide to make something similiar but with a different philosophy - just make a roadster like it should be made. Then you have the Miata,with a small gutless 1.5 engine, manual soft top that garuntees leakage, plastic interior that looks cheaper then that in the London Underground, no speed,, no performance, just that little chassis advantage that makes it fun.

It was never expected to be a huge success, because what they want is just a simple roadster, however thousands are sold, then ten thousands, hundred thousands....the series has remain unchange for a decade besides one facelift, but it continue to sell for thousands.....while the Elan, being hold back between preserving its history and innovating something new, failed miserbly and end up having it's name being sold to Kia.

If a car can remain unchange for a decade, then I think...maybe it's worth to wait a decade for a game as well? We all want LFS to be better, but in this LFS universe maybe better has an unique interpretation?

I've always treasured one thing about the community, is that most suggestions are indeed rised with a good intention, however maybe we first have to get in tune with the devs to actually make that constructive.

Just not listening.

You guys oughta schedule a business meeting with the devs.

Quote from Scawen :

If LFS bores you for now, just do something else for a while.

No way. I'm also going to email the boffins at CERN every week asking when they're going to invent teleportation because I've been waiting for it for years. I bet they say "When it's ready" too those lazy scientific bastards...

it's amazing what tolerant and useful answers have been given to a pile of self important rubbish...
it seems a few people think the devs are capable of making a fantastic racing game, but incapable of making decisions and assesing how to make it? Fairly backwards logic to my mind

Quote from Breizh :

Just not listening.

You guys oughta schedule a business meeting with the devs.

Hey, don't compare us to Delerue.


I'm not here for flaming LFS. I just expressed MY opinion (what I think that the forum allow me to do), and if you read my reply. I'm saying that LFS IS good, but not perfect.

ive just noticed something...speedsoro,delarue and falkowski and mogar are all from brazil....hmm?

Ive just noticed something...sil3ntwar, Spoonsports and hankster and blowtus are all from australia....hmm?

Let the conspiracy theories begin..

I've never met them before in my life! :hidesbehi

What's your point?
My point is you come off the same as Delerue. Things aren't going your way, and your solution is making the devs do what you wish.
Like I said, if you are "right", you should be able to make your point apparent and convince the devs with no effort...

So far it seems you're not considering the devs' perspective, or even understanding it.

Thank you devs for not selling your soul for a ride on the candy-coated mediocrity train.
Thank you for not caving in to greed and popularity.
Thank you for not allowing modding to dilute the evolution of LFS.
Thanks for being the black sheep.

Thank you LFS for not pretending to be anything other than an online racing simulator.

Not only is the goal a worthy one, the journey is very rewarding indeed.

All that and a bag of chips!

Gunn, I heard you used to be an Aussie too, before you defected to "Other"

You make some good points too - the business model of LFS is outside the box, non-conformist and independent - far removed from all the pressures, compromises and occasional lack of quality of large-scale mass produced entertainment. The closer they get to a large-company model, the further from their original dream they'll go (imho), so all power to them. What these 3 guys are doing is top quality, totally original, cost-effective (especially for LFS fans) and should be applauded.

The way the Developers are choosing to work is the very reason I have been hooked on this sim and will remain hooked on it for "as long as it takes"

Many aspects of a racing sim are very complex to simulate (i.e. engineer's of many types; in universities, tyre companies and vehical manufacturing plants spend many millions of dollars trying to develop good simulated tyre models with Supercomputers! and still come up short of perfect and they aren't even attempting to do it in real time...) Scawen is doing a very good job with tyres considering he's only got the average users PC to work with, which is maybe like a 2Ghz processor many developers of games would be extremly tempted to take shortcuts (which under cirtain circumstances may feel like real to life physics but are in actual fact just quick fix shortcuts) but the LFS team chooses to do it right which will take much time and thats only one aspect...

Currently I would guess segmants of the physics would have to be approximated and this is the area that needs "plenty of experimantation and testing" to get that approximation to fit real life data as best as possible with the limited computer power available to them

The reality is as we go along computers will get more powerful (another 10 years and the average user will have PC's as powerful as today's supercomputers at least ) so at that time they will be able to simulate aspects of physics they just aren't able to at the current time because of lack of CPU grunt so indeed it could be a job for life if they want it

Can't wait for the version of LFS that will be available in 20 years time it probaly have the friction of the tyre being calculated in real time at the molecular level where the tyre is interacting with the individual stones and voids in the raod surface (hey you look how far we've come since the mid 80's anythings possible)

[Disclaimer] This is just my view of things, I'm not an expert but love being a Jack of all trades [/Disclaimer]

Well, BBO you better hope scawen is still making LFS when hes 54

Quote from afastest :

Ok, there are several somehow, maybe remotely, maybe in some way , valid points, but... eeerh, there is something abo... well, i couldn't read the first post to the end.

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