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Global Warming: Human's Fault?
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Global Warming: Human's Fault?
Look, an eagle! [points]

P.S. I don't believe half the rubbish about Global Warming, but I'm not denying it's existence in the slightest.
wheel4hummer is saying he has a life but meanwhile, his the majority of his activites are all computer/tv related. He's either watching tv or watching the computer.

And btw, 8 degrees is a shit load of temperature. There is PLENTY of scientific evidence that global warming exists, i don't know what crazy school you go to...even if you don't go to school it is pretty self evident...
But there is surprisingly little evidence that human beings have had much to do with it.
Quote from tristancliffe :But there is surprisingly little evidence that human beings have had much to do with it.

I'm not saying humans have anything to do with it. I'm saying it exists.
anyone watch the top gear polar special jus on tonight? north pole looks fine to me. . . . . .


btw, before i get flamed for being ignorant and an ass and al that other crap, i am fully aware of global warming, and its effectst. but unsure of the truthful causes. i actually watched a program once that said that the actual ocean emits CO2, and also that climate change increased slightly before the co2 levels raised, basicaly saying that the planet warming up causes more co2 to be produced. probably a load of bulshit but thought id share one of freeviews documentaries with you.
#6 - FL!P
Quote from tristancliffe :But there is surprisingly little evidence that human beings have had much to do with it.

I don't want to sound pedantic, but the entire climate history is written in the polar ice cores. More exactly, air bubbles caught in the ice allow to determine the exact composition and temperature of the atmosphere at the time they were formed. The deeper you drill, the farther in time you go.

The climate history have been studied and modeled several times using this method and its variations are well known. And these studies show an unmistakable increase of CO2 in the last 200 years, obviously related with human utilization of fossil carbon (coal, oil, gaz, etc).

The Net is full of articles on this subject. For example here's one: http://pubs.acs.org/hotartcl/est/99/apr/learn.html. Google is your friend.
Flip - the problem is there are 3 types of mathmatical analysis - there are lies, dammed lies and statistics.

Yes, the figures do show an increase.

HOWEVER, the figures do not say how unreliable it is taking CO2 figures from ice.

Once upon a time, and for millennia before then, carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere were low and stable. Then came the industrial revolution and CO2 levels began to rise. The more man industrialized, the more that CO2 — and the temperature — rose. In the last half century, with industrialization at unprecedented levels, CO2 reached levels unprecedented in the human history. This is the story of global warming.
This story is a fable, says Zbigniew Jaworowski, past chairman of the United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation, a participant or chairman of some 20 Advisory Groups of the International Atomic Energy Agency and the United Nations Environmental Program, and current chair of the Scientific Committee of the Central Laboratory for Radiological Protection in Warsaw.
Dr. Jaworowski agrees that CO2 levels rose in the last half century. Starting in 1958, direct, real-time measurements of CO2 have been systematically taken at a state-of-the-art measuring station in Hawaii. These measurements, considered the world’s most reliable, are a good basis for science by bodies like the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the agency that is co-ordinating the worldwide effort to stop global warming.
But the UN does not rely on direct real-time measurements for the period prior to 1958. “The IPCC relies on icecore data — on air that has been trapped for hundreds or thousands of years deep below the surface,” Dr. Jaworowski explains. “These ice cores are a foundation of the global warming hypothesis, but the foundation is groundless — the IPCC has based its global-warming hypothesis on arbitrary assumptions and these assumptions, it is now clear, are false.”
Ice, the IPCC believes, precisely preserves the ancient air, allowing for a precise reconstruction of the ancient atmosphere. For this to be true, no component of the trapped air can escape from the ice. Neither can the ice ever become liquid. Neither can the various gases within air ever combine or separate.
This perfectly closed system, frozen in time, is a fantasy. “Liquid water is common in polar snow and ice, even at temperatures as low as -72C,” Dr. Jaworowski explains, “and we also know that in cold water, CO2 is 70 times more soluble than nitrogen and 30 times more soluble than oxygen, guaranteeing that the proportions of the various gases that remain in the trapped, ancient air will change. Moreover, under the extreme pressure that deep ice is subjected to — 320 bars, or more than 300 times normal atmospheric pressure — high levels of CO2 get squeezed out of ancient air.”
Because of these various properties in ancient air, one would expect that, over time, ice cores that started off with high levels of CO2 would become depleted of excess CO2, leaving a fairly uniform base level of CO2 behind. In fact, this is exactly what the ice cores show.
“According to the ice-core samples, CO2 levels vary little over time,” Dr. Jaworowski sates. “The ice core data from the Taylor Dome in Antarctica shows almost no change in the level of atmospheric CO2 over the last 7,000 to 8,000 years — it varied between 260 parts per million and 264 parts per million.
“Yet other indicators of past CO2 levels, such as fossil leaf stomata, show that CO2 levels over the past 7,000 to 8,000 years varied by more than 50 parts per million, between 270 and 326 parts per million. We also know that there have been great fluctuations in temperature over that time period — the Little Age just 500 years ago, for example. If the icecore record was reliable, and CO2 levels reflected temperatures, why wouldn’t the ice-core data have shown CO2 levels to fall during the Little Ice Age? ”
Dr. Jaworowski has devoted much of his professional life to the study of the composition of the atmosphere, as part of his work to understand the consequences of radioactive fallout from nuclear-weapons testing and nuclearreactor accidents. After taking numerous ice samples over the course of a dozen field trips to glaciers in six continents, and studying how contaminants travel through ice over time, he came to realize how fraught with error ice-core samples were in reconstructing the atmosphere. The Chernobyl accident, whose contaminants he studied in the 1990s in a Scandinavian glacier, provided the most illumination.
“This ice contained extremely high radioactivity of cesium-137 from the Chernobyl fallout, more than a thousand times higher than that found in any glacier from nuclear-weapons fallout, and more than 100 times higher than found elsewhere from the Chernobyl fallout,” he explained. “This unique contamination of glacier ice revealed how particulate contaminants migrated, and also made sense of other discoveries I made during my other glacier expeditions. It convinced me that ice is not a closed system, suitable for an exact reconstruction of the composition of the past atmosphere.”
Because of the high importance of this realization, in 1994 Dr. Jaworowski, together with a team from the Norwegian Institute for Energy Technics, proposed a research project on the reliability of trace-gas determinations in the polar ice. The prospective sponsors of the research refused to fund it, claiming the research would be “immoral” if it served to undermine the foundations of climate research.
The refusal did not come as a surprise. Several years earlier, in a peer-reviewed article published by the Norwegian Polar Institute, Dr. Jaworowski criticized the methods by which CO2 levels were ascertained from ice cores, and cast doubt on the global-warming hypothesis. The institute’s director, while agreeing to publish his article, also warned Dr. Jaworowski that “this is not the way one gets research projects.” Once published, the institute came under fire, especially since the report soon sold out and was reprinted. Said one prominent critic, “this paper puts the Norsk Polarinstitutt in disrepute.” Although none of the critics faulted Dr. Jaworowski’s science, the institute nevertheless fired him to maintain its access to funding.
Is there an alternative to ice-core samples, which are but proxies from which assumptions about the historical composition of the atmosphere can be made? “Yes, there are several other proxies, and they lead to different findings about CO2,” Dr. Jaworowski states. “But we don’t need to rely on proxies at all.
“Scientists from numerous disciplines have been examining CO2 since the beginning of the 19th century, and they have left behind a record of tens of thousands of direct, real-time measurements. These measurements tell a far different story about CO2 — they demonstrate, for example, that CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere have fluctuated greatly, and that several times in the past 200 years CO2 concentrations have exceeded today’s levels.
“The IPCC rejects these direct measurements, some taken by Nobel Prize winners. They prefer the view of CO2 as seen through ice.”
Lawrence Solomon is executive director of Urban Renaissance Institute and Consumer Policy Institute, divisions of Energy Probe Research Foundation.
Posted by Guy Crittenden on May 4, 2007 01:42 PM | Permalink
Quote from Racer X NZ :Flip - the problem is there are 3 types of mathmatical analysis - there are lies, dammed lies and statistics.

Yes, the figures do show an increase.

...


\

Finally, some common sense that happens to make good scientific sense too.
Didn't read that long post (will do in a bit).

Yes, you can analyse ice-cores. But you probably get a bit of data every thousand years or so? You cannot get annual data from it.

We are then comparing this very broad overview from ice cores to daily data from today. Proper records probably go back about 50 years, maybe 100. So, we are comparing data taken every 1000 years to data taken every day over 100 years. We see recent trends (which might only be blips) and we think ohnoes.

The fact remains that there is no evidence that human beings have dramatically changed CO2 levels in the air from what nature would already have caused. There is surprisingly little evidence that CO2 is really a problem anyway - there has always been lots of CO2 in the air, and at times more, at times less than now. Remember when England was covered in ice entirely? What about when it was a lush tropical rainforested island?
Seperated posts so the IS thread won't be locked.


My comment on the situation; I think it is just normal Earth. It has been desert before, it has been tropical and lush before, it has been ice before, it is where it is now, and it is probably going back to desert once again and repeating the process.

I still agree with Clarkson, it is all of the cow's fault for producing so much methane; instead of using other means to create energy, the cow completes the circle of human's daily needs: power from methane, food from.. well you know, and milk. Problems solved.
I think it's rather churlish to excuse your own rapacious consumerism because you're not yet convinced global warming is your fault, when the world is so hugely overpopulated that any efforts you make to reduce your personal impact on the situation will be a step in the right direction.

If a smoking gun was produced tomorrow, I doubt any of the current naysayers would change their habits - they'd probably argue that the planet could do with an ice age anyway.
Global warming is happening, whether it is caused by us as a species I don't think so. I think that we may be having a small effect as we do produce alot of emissions into the atmosphere but for the main part I believe it is just another cylce of the earth. As been said there have been times when the world has been completely frozen, others when the majorit has been rain forest.
One, hopefully, good thing to come out of 'oh noes global warming' is that we reduce our dependancy on fossil fuels.

There is so much contradictory information that it makes it hard to believe what is right.
Urgh....again? We've had this subject like ten hundred thousand times already, search you noob! Repost is always a repost!





Anyway. At the moment I think it doesn't matter if it's our fault. It's certain it is happening no doubt and we probably have no way stopping it. I'm fine with that. The global warming awareness campaigns, and pushing it down your troath and trying to make you feel guilty is what puts the most people off I think. In a way they mean good, and I think it's really good if it can make people think what they are doing for the environment around them. How much they consume and how much stuff and energy they plainly waste. But forcing people to act in some way has never worked. The change has to come inside the people, not by laws, it has to become socially unacceptable to waste and live like the average American. But it's hard to say if that will ever happen in the world which is run by consumerism.
#15 - FL!P
Obviously the climate goes through cycles and there have been many global warming events (and ice ages) in the past. And I never said that human activity was entirely responsible for the current one.

But claiming that our recent release in the atmosphere—recent in cosmological terms—of millions of tons of carbon dioxide and many other greenhouse effect gases has no effect whatsoever is a blatant lie told by coal and oil producers, and by the governments of countries whose economy is based on them. The ability to put two and two together should be enough to understand that whatever enters a system affects it in a way or another.

You can always find scientific articles that contradict the others (especially in this case, because as I mentioned earlier, the US government and various oil companies have founded several allegedly independent researches during the last decades to make up proofs that human activity had no effect on the climate). That's why you should never base your claims on one research or another, but only on the international scientific consensus. And AFAIK, the consensus at the moment is that human activity has indeed a big effect on global climate.

Many people live by the Bible and believe that the Earth and everything on it were given to the human kind to do with them whatever they wanted. I don't mean to offend anyone, but this also is a lie (and please, don't bring up creationism). The Earth doesn't belong to us. We belong to it, like everything else that has grown on it. And as the (so-called) most advanced species, it's our responsibility to take care of it, not only for us and our grand-children, but also for the other species that have the same rights on it than us (most were here long before us, after all). But what do we do instead? We exploit everything that can be exploited, and we're now doing it at a rate that exceeds the system's capacity to heal and regenerate itself. This is stupid, and selfish, and closing our eyes on it is the laziest and most childish attitude we could have. Like "I can't hear you, lalalalala". I agree completely with what Smith says in Matrix: "The human species is the cancer of this planet".

And don't get me started on the ****s, whatever their age, who say they don't give a shit about what will happen after their death!
Quote from tristancliffe :There is surprisingly little evidence that CO2 is really a problem anyway - there has always been lots of CO2 in the air, and at times more, at times less than now.

I remember a document trashing this (common) opinion by saying; Yes, CO2 in the air has changed dramatically over the cycles of earth, but it has NEVER been at these levels. Meaning that the (average) CO2 levels today are triple or even quadruple compared to the highest (average) in the past.

Quote from Greboth : One, hopefully, good thing to come out of 'oh noes global warming' is that we reduce our dependancy on fossilfuels.

Yep, that will happen when we find a way to use fusionenergy.

Quote :There is so much contradictory information that it makes it hard to believe what is right.

Feel the same way here

Humans are responsible for the ozone layer disappearing? Hah, bullcrap! Earth atmospheare is too big for that. Oh wait, is that the way it was?
Quote from pine-fin :Meaning that the (average) CO2 levels today are triple or even quadruple compared to the highest (average) in the past.

Whoa how on earth did you come to that conclusion? I think you'll find the %age of carbon dioxide in the air created by humans or as a result of human development is around 2%.

The fact of the matter is yes humans are increasing the rate of 'global warming' due to the additional amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere, however it's an almost insignificant amount, and the earth is going through a phase of warming. People seem to forget we had an ice age not so long ago, and that the temperature of the earth is constantly changing.
Quote from pb32000 :Whoa how on earth did you come to that conclusion?

As I wrote, ".. I remember a document saying..". I didn't comment on it being wrong or right.
Quote from tristancliffe :Look, an eagle! [points]

P.S. I don't believe half the rubbish about Global Warming, but I'm not denying it's existence in the slightest.

WE agree on something, Global Warming is a sham, Volcanoes probobly exert more harmful gasses than anything humans could.
Quote from BlueFlame :WE agree on something, Global Warming is a sham, Volcanoes probobly exert more harmful gasses than anything humans could.

That I've heard is true. I've seen documentaries stating that the eruption of Mt St Helens Emitted 2-3 times the amount of Co2 that the rest of the world did in the following year, I think the same was also from Mt Etna.

Global warming is around, but as I've read by many people's posts here, the earth does have a warming and cooling trend which it does so every few thousand years (or even hundreds). The sea reflects the heat from the sun back to the o-zone which keeps Co2 in our atmosphere also.

Until I see conclusive PROOF that human activity causes alot of this "Global Warming" I'll still continue with my usual stuff of my Computer, TV etc.
Quote from tristancliffe :There is surprisingly little evidence that CO2 is really a problem anyway

venus

Quote :Remember when England was covered in ice entirely?

did you factor in the suns radiative power and the cloud/dust coverage in the atmosphere at that time ?

btw i find it hilarious that some of you seem to think top gear and especially clarkson are a reliable source for conclusions in scientific debates

the simple scientific facts which cannot be denied accurate ice core data or not are these
1) co2 is a greenhouse gas
2) co2 is on the rise partly due to human activity
3) the earths atmosphere is nowhere near opaque in the absorption bands of co2
4) co2 concentrations and temps are in a positive feedback loop

Quote from pine-fin :Earth atmospheare is too big for that.

curious fact:
pretty much every single person whos actually seen the atmosphere from above would beg to differ
Yes earth’s climate characteristics change over time… In a period of “a number” hundreds of thousand years, global temperature rises and falls from +XX oC το -ΧΧοC… that’s normal…
What is not normal… is the rate of that climate change in the past 100years…
And the most worrying is that the rate of the climate changes is increasing...
If that was normal, there would be ice age every 1XXX years.
Quote from kaynd :Yes earth’s climate characteristics change over time… In a period of “a number” hundreds of thousand years, global temperature rises and falls from +XX oC το -ΧΧοC… that’s normal…
What is not normal… is the rate of that climate change in the past 100years…
And the most worrying is that the rate of the climate changes is increasing...
If that was normal, there would be ice age every 1XXX years.

The rate of climate change is increasing - compared to what ?

We don't have ANY reliable historic data going back further than 100 years AT THE MOST.

Geologically speaking this is a very short time /sarcasm

We have no idea what is normal, therefore how can we say what is abnormal ?

If we have no point of reference then we have no idea if it is changing and if it is changing then what speed or direction it is changing in.

And FYI there was a mini ice age ( 3 actually ) from the 16th to mid 19th centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
Quote from FL!P :Obviously the climate goes through cycles and there have been many global warming events (and ice ages) in the past. And I never said that human activity was entirely responsible for the current one.

But claiming that our recent release in the atmosphere—recent in cosmological terms—of millions of tons of carbon dioxide and many other greenhouse effect gases has no effect whatsoever is a blatant lie told by coal and oil producers, and by the governments of countries whose economy is based on them. The ability to put two and two together should be enough to understand that whatever enters a system affects it in a way or another.

You can always find scientific articles that contradict the others (especially in this case, because as I mentioned earlier, the US government and various oil companies have founded several allegedly independent researches during the last decades to make up proofs that human activity had no effect on the climate). That's why you should never base your claims on one research or another, but only on the international scientific consensus. And AFAIK, the consensus at the moment is that human activity has indeed a big effect on global climate.

Many people live by the Bible and believe that the Earth and everything on it were given to the human kind to do with them whatever they wanted. I don't mean to offend anyone, but this also is a lie (and please, don't bring up creationism). The Earth doesn't belong to us. We belong to it, like everything else that has grown on it. And as the (so-called) most advanced species, it's our responsibility to take care of it, not only for us and our grand-children, but also for the other species that have the same rights on it than us (most were here long before us, after all). But what do we do instead? We exploit everything that can be exploited, and we're now doing it at a rate that exceeds the system's capacity to heal and regenerate itself. This is stupid, and selfish, and closing our eyes on it is the laziest and most childish attitude we could have. Like "I can't hear you, lalalalala". I agree completely with what Smith says in Matrix: "The human species is the cancer of this planet".

And don't get me started on the ****s, whatever their age, who say they don't give a shit about what will happen after their death!

You do realize that Global warming is a research cash cow don't you?
Do you also realize that researchers that AREN'T paid by the US Government or "big Oil" will manipulate data just as fast as the next guy don't you? How do you think they make their money? Do you honestly think the Sierra club or green peace or whatever environmental (keyword MENTAL) group will continue to finance a guy that keeps coming up with results that are contrary to what they want? I mean if I made my money off of contributions from unknowing tree hugging do gooders, would they still pay me if my scientist dude kept coming up with evidence that proved co2 emissions from cars was globally harmless or I dunno - Fluorocarbons are insignificant? Of course not!
Please don't get me wrong. I think it's a good thing that people are becoming more environmentally conscious. I just wish they'd step back and learn more about the tree they're hugging before they strangle it.
Quote from Shotglass :venus

LOL! I actually did laugh out loud, that was damn funny



Quote :did you factor in the suns radiative power and the cloud/dust coverage in the atmosphere at that time ?

Of course he did

Quote :1) co2 is a greenhouse gas

Yes, but not even a terribly effective one. Shall we do away with water vapour as well?


I have no problem with cutting back pollution in general, in fact I'm far more concerned about carcinogens in the air that I am about CO2. The political BS behind the "global warming" fad is just garbage IMO, although I'm sure neither side is in it for the right reasons.

edit: 100% agree with RacerY
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Global Warming: Human's Fault?
(269 posts, closed, started )
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