Quote from StewartFisher :

By the same logic, was the Ferrari employee who gave Coughlan the documents also acting in behalf of the whole Ferrari team? If so, I don't see what Ferrari are moaning about. They gave the documents to McLaren!

So, in your own words, Ferrari should be held responsible for willingly damaging itself? This is a bad interpretation of the concept of objective responsibility that would be rejected by every legal court of the civilised world.

Quote from StewartFisher :

By the same logic, was the Ferrari employee who gave Coughlan the documents also acting in behalf of the whole Ferrari team? If so, I don't see what Ferrari are moaning about. They gave the documents to McLaren!

To a degree, yes. "Ferrari" had some material made available to "McLaren", although in both cases unbeknown to the team managers. Thus there is legal action from "Ferrari" against "McLaren" and the individuals involved, including those within "Ferrari".

Does change the fact that "McLaren" were found guilty against the charges filed, but escaped punishment though. Case pending on individual prosecution.

Actually if Mclaren had been punished Ferrari surely would have been given the same punishment, since an individual in both teams broke the exact same rule. I think that if they had punished both teams equally for this then it would have been a better outcome, a reduction in points for both of them would seriously open up the championship to teams like BMW and Renault.

I do agree that the Hamilton boost that F1 has got probably played a large part in the decision to take no action.

Quote from StewartFisher :

By the same logic, was the Ferrari employee who gave Coughlan the documents also acting in behalf of the whole Ferrari team? If so, I don't see what Ferrari are moaning about. They gave the documents to McLaren!

Ferrari sued their own guy.

Quote from Gunn :

Ferrari sued their own guy.

There's not only this.

I don't know the exact wording of the Concorde agreement, and that's really important in this case.

The tradition of justice administration in sports doesn't consider - generally - resorting to normal legal courts unless there's a mandatory criminal investigation, so you have to sign agreements that have a binding value, and generally rules are enforced in a much stronger way than in a civil court.

However in this case the outcome of the sports trial was simply unacceptable to Ferrari, so Ferrari could have talked about going to a civil court where they would have probably had an easy victory since the sports trial where McLaren hasn't been punished, but has been found guilty, is contradictory. This contradiction cannot occur so easily in a civil or criminal court (if we forget OJ Simpson's case, of course).

Moreover, if the wording of the Concorde agreement can really be interpreted as in this forum, the same agreement could be declared null and void in its entirety.

Consider this hypothesis: a disgruntled McLaren mechanic decides to damage McLaren. No information whatsoever is given by this mechanic to third parties, there's just a sabotage. Should McLaren be considered guilty in solido with the mechanic, and therefore punished for the sabotage they have been subjected to?

My answer is, very simply, no. Such paradoxical interpretation of objective responsibility would be considered absurd in a civil or criminal court, so the entire agreement could be declared null and void with nefarious consequences.

So, what happened? I have read two piece of news about it. The first one, two or three days ago, talked about Ferrari's decision not to go to a civil court to discuss the case. The second one, more recent, talks about FIA's decision to accept a review of the case.

There is a very interesting timing in these events. This is my opinion:

- Ferrari thought the outcome was ridiculous (it is, manifestly and without doubt).

- Ferrari had some informal talks where the decision to resort to civil or criminal law administration was disclosed to some selected persons.

- FIA considered the outcome of the sports trial and decided to allow a review to avoid consequences that would have hurt F1 image more than it has been up till now, and told this to Ferrari (and possibly other parties) before going public.

- Ferrari made public the decision to avoid resorting to civil/criminal law. If you consider what happened, this is quite strange. Either Ferrari felt they had something to lose or they were waiting for something to happen, and they already knew about it. Which one of the two? I guess it's not so difficult to understand, especially when...

- FIA announced the decision to refer the case to Court of Appeal.

Of course, this is just an opinion based on the few facts that appeared in the newspapers. However, there could be better (or more informed) judgements.

Here is the long awaited response by Mclaren, I told you it wouldn't be long before Ferrari's statements provoked a reaction.

McLaren hit out at Ferrari

McLaren have publicly accused Ferrari of winning the Australian Grand Prix earlier this year with an illegal car and claim the Italian team are now deliberately providing the media with misleading information aimed at tarnishing McLaren's reputation.

For the first time since the spying scandal began last month, McLaren have disclosed in public their detailed version of the events in the affair that is currently being contested between the Woking-based outfit and their rivals Ferrari.

In a lengthy letter made public by McLaren and addressed to the president of the Italian motorsport authority ACI-CSAI Luigi Macaluso, McLaren CEO Ron Dennis heavily criticises Ferrari for spreading what he says is misleading information that is aimed at damaging McLaren's reputation.

"McLaren's reputation has been unfairly sullied by incorrect press reports from Italy and grossly misleading statements from Ferrari," Dennis writes.
"This is a fantastic World Championship and it would be a tragedy if one of the best World Championships in years was derailed by the acts of one Ferrari and one McLaren employee acting for their own purposes wholly unconnected with Ferrari or McLaren."

Dennis defends his team's behaviour in saying McLaren's only knowledge of information leaked by ex-Ferrari engineer Nigel Stepney was regarding the floor device on the Ferrari car at the Australian Grand Prix.

Dennis defines Stepney's actions as 'whistle-blowing' and says such behaviour should be encouraged in Formula One, not stopped, and accuses Ferrari of winning the Australian Grand Prix with an illegal car.

"Were it not for Mr Stepney drawing this illegal device to the attention of McLaren ... there is every reason to suppose that Ferrari would have continued to race with an illegal car," Dennis writes.

"It is in the interests of F1 that whistle-blowing is encouraged and not discouraged. If team members think that their identity will be revealed they will not whistle-blow."

But Dennis is equally adamant that his team has no knowledge of the 780-page dossier that Stepney had given Coughlan at the end of April this year, and the McLaren CEO says Coughlan had acted against the explicit instructions of his supervisors and without involving or benefiting the McLaren team.

"Let me make it clear," Dennis writes, "McLaren did know about the whistle blowing matters in March 2007 - indeed it reported these matters to the FIA.
"However that has nothing to do with what Mr Coughlan did on and after 28 April 2007. McLaren management and staff had no knowledge whatsoever about that."

Hmmm if they get any deeper into this, I am sure they are just digging a deeper hole for themselves...

At least its a more balanced fight now, previously it was just accusations made against Mclaren by Ferrari, at least now Mclaren are calling Ferrari a bunch of cheaters too.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

At least its a more balanced fight now, previously it was just accusations made against Mclaren by Ferrari, at least now Mclaren are calling Ferrari a bunch of cheaters too.

:munching_

Exactly, it provides us some entertainment off track and spices up the fight on it. I'm in favour of a boxing match between Todt and Dennis, then Massa and Alonso

McLaren should shut up before they get themselves into deeper shit. Every time Ron Dennis opens his mouth his credibility vanishes.

You guys are still confused about the reason for F1. And its not the racing...
It's all about "Big Bucks" so stop thinking that this has anything to do with what happens on the track.

Reminds me a lot of WWF ( or wharever it's called now ), lots of posers in lycra talking out their a@$^$ and hordes of fans who are deluded enough to thinks its 'real'.

Want to know who's right ?

Whoever earns Bernie the most money .......

Sorry Ferrari - shouldn't have let Michael retire, Lewis is worth more "Bernie Bucks"

Give it a month & see if I'm right.

I wonder how many times in rapid succession can Ron Dennis say "whistle-blow"...

Erm, if Ron Dennis knows that much about the contents of the dossier, it's probably fair to assume other influential members of McLaren know too. Which means they have (and cannot help to act on) Ferrari information. Therefore by admitting some of the contents he has just given himself a guilty verdict in my book.

The big question for me is; why now? If Ron Dennis is so sure nothing is wrong, and has such a clear understanding of what does and does not happen at McLaren... or, in his words, Team Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, why did he not make that known five weeks ago when this whole thing hit the fan.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Erm, if Ron Dennis knows that much about the contents of the dossier,

Apparently that information didn't come from the Ferrari data, it came straight from the mouth of Stepney.

Quote from Gunn :

McLaren should shut up before they get themselves into deeper shit. Every time Ron Dennis opens his mouth his credibility vanishes.

So defending themselves against a public attack from Ferrari is damaging their credibility? The recent letters from Ferrari were a disgrace. They offered no further evidence or information and simply seemed to be a reaction to the FIA not supporting the Ferrari version of events.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Erm, if Ron Dennis knows that much about the contents of the dossier, it's probably fair to assume other influential members of McLaren know too. Which means they have (and cannot help to act on) Ferrari information. Therefore by admitting some of the contents he has just given himself a guilty verdict in my book.

At what point in the statement did Ron Dennis admit to knowing the contents of the dossier?

Ron Dennis' and McLaren's statements about the issue have been much more logical than Ferrari's mad ranting. What Dennis said in the statement today pretty much confirms my view, which is that Stepney was disaffected and was intending to leave Ferrari (hence the 'whistle-blowing') and that he and Coughlan intended to use the documents elsewhere.

Quote from Tigershark :

The big question for me is; why now? If Ron Dennis is so sure nothing is wrong, and has such a clear understanding of what does and does not happen at McLaren... or, in his words, Team Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, why did he not make that known five weeks ago when this whole thing hit the fan.

It's often not wise to comment on these things before any sort of hearing or enquiry into the matter. McLaren were quite right to limit statements to a denial of any wrongdoing before the hearing last week.

I've just found this letter from Ron Dennis to the FIA and Ferrari on the McLaren website:
http://www.mclaren.co.uk/lates ... to%20Luigi%20Macaluso.pdf
It's an interesting read, and one which I believe completely.

Quote from StewartFisher :

What Dennis said in the statement today pretty much confirms my view

Being Dennis part in cause I'll just refrain from considering him a reliable witness. That doesn't amount to say Dennis is lying, but his words should be at least taken with a pinch of salt.