Forgive Speed Soro, Father, for he knows not what he paid for, nor his rights about the game, nor what the development style is like.

Bogey, see above a few posts

Oh WOW! Sigh. Fanboy? I think Tristan has simply seen and appreciated the devs' efforts for what they are worth insted of just think of his own ass. If you honestly think anything beats LFS at the moment go and play it - also think of LFS in 3 months time. I think you are just an idiot with your head up your ass and you just insult when all your points are proven wrong.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Is this better?

No, this one is though.

Is it just me or has this forum become full of people who do not understand:

1. The licensing system of LFS
2. The LFS development team and their long term
3. The way LFS is developed
4. The meaning of the word "Alpha"
5. Car physics
234216. The meaning of the word "fanboy"
43251347. The fact that bugs are known and whining about them won't get them fixed quicker

A nice summary for this thread is:

"Donde hay confianza da asco" (Spanish)

This can be translated to something like: "where there is confidence makes sick", wich means (more or less) that in a situation of mutual confidence, people tend to be more careless in their treatment with the people they have confidence with.

Maybe the terms are not the correct ones (man, that was hard to translate!!) but I hope you get the point.

Regards

Quote from Mogar :

And I also think that this rush for improvements is due to the fact that we already have a great base (the immersion that it provides is just great, we can feel connected to the car so much in a way that no other simulator gives, that we in Brazil call it the "LFSsensation" ), and LFS have potential to be the best simulator by a far margin. We really hope that LFS achieve that.

That has been my thoughts exactly on this subject since the day I bought LFS S2 (the week it came out IIRC).. I played every single week, put many, many hours in, but I am waiting till the next update to play again.. since rF came out.. :Kick_Can_

Quote from Eldanor :

A nice summary for this thread is:

"Donde hay confianza da asco" (Spanish)

This can be translated to something like: "where there is confidence makes sick", wich means (more or less) that in a situation of mutual confidence, people tend to be more careless in their treatment with the people they have confidence with.

Maybe the terms are not the correct ones (man, that was hard to translate!!) but I hope you get the point.

Regards

You give your hand and they take your arm

Quote from zurdospeed :

You give your hand and they take your arm

Bingo!

Quote from Falkowski83 :

Yes. I never said I was the owner of the truth (wich I am not). Nor a fortune teller. I know I may be wrong. And so all of you also may be wrong.

Well, you know that our mother language is portuguese. Personally, I'm fluent in English, as some of my friends that posted here. We are putting the ideas over and over because there are people (not Scawen) who just seem to distort our initial ideas and put things in our mouths that we didn't say. Understanding what we mean seems to be a really difficult thing to some members of this message board, and I believe that I was cristal clear in every post I made.

And this is where it all started... the first several posts come across as quite arrogant and demanding to english speaking people (regardless of their intent) so unfortunately that had set the tone for the rest of the thread And I'll just be brutally honest here, while you come accross as fluent in English, I'm afraid your friends don't, so I think there would have been quite alot of misuderstanding going on especially in the area of tone and intent...

This is indeed a recurring problem between international communications (it's hard enough between native english speaking countries at times let alone countries where english is not the first language )

Having said that people also make assumptions about each other all too easily (it's very easy to apply labels rather than understand people) this goes for all parties in the discusion including myself... you will find that many of us who defend LFS strongly also see it's problems just as clearly as others, but it's just we have a different perspective of those problems than some, that's all

Quote from Lautsprecher[NOR] :

**** off!

that's where all started, and this was just the second post in this thread.

No, it was started by the lack of thought in the first post. You think that the devs are shallow people who are just here for the money and we are just here for the finished product. Maybe you _should_ really **** off now and stop thinking you are one with a new idea here... this is a periodic thing - every 2 months or so, we get a new thread like this.

wowowow I think the point that a word is censored is that it's not a good word.

chill out lads.

Quote from axus :

No, it was started by the lack of thought in the first post. You think that the devs are shallow people who are just here for the money and we are just here for the finished product. Maybe you _should_ really **** off now and stop thinking you are one with a new idea here... this is a periodic thing - every 2 months or so, we get a new thread like this.

Yep I'd have to agree with Axus here, although I'm quite alot more tolerant than Axus (he's young and impetueous ) I'm sure given time he'll mellow like us oldies and I also agree the second post didn't make the situation any better, but like you or your friends said of the developers "if you market a product to the public you'd better be ready for some critisim" well the same can be said of expressing your views publicly... we all (including myself) need to take critisim in a non-personal way as Falkowski83 rightly pointed out (i.e. spit out the bones)

As for the first post I'd even go further and say that you were conveying the wrong message right from when you thought up the tittle of the thread But as I said I for one, as I know most others will overlook that as your not a native english speaker, lets move on... as Falkowski83 said peace hey I've stomped on plenty of toes around here and english is all I speak

For those of you that have this information or maybe the devs can answer. I understand what Scawen is saying on behalf of him and the rest developers. I also get what the brazilian guys want (inst this what we all want?). Time is for me not an issue, i would rather wait more and have a GOOD patch then to get the devs running mad so they relese ANYTHING, just so they could "satisfy" us. Have just simples questions if its posible to answer them at this time. Considering the next update:

- Will there be better sound improvements? YES NO
- Will there be weather changes effects? YES NO
- WIll there be a better desing of the "cockpit" YES NO

I know you will be working on the physics, so that question has been taken care off.

So......... will we see this in S2 or is it expeceted in S3?

PLEASE, SIMPLE YES OR NO QUESTION, DONT COMMENT WHY I ASKED! OR AM I NOT ABLE TO WAIT, ETC,......

Thank you.

PS
If you cant or dont want to answer the questions above, its ok aswell.

Quote from YUGO45 :

For those of you that have this information or maybe the devs can answer. I understand what Scawen is saying on behalf of him and the rest developers. I also get what the brazilian guys want (inst this what we all want?). Time is for me not an issue, i would rather wait more and have a GOOD patch then to get the devs running mad so they relese ANYTHING, just so they could "satisfy" us. Have just simples questions if its posible to answer them at this time. Considering the next update:

- Will there be better sound improvements? YES NO
- Will there be weather changes effects? YES NO
- WIll there be a better desing of the "cockpit" YES NO

I know you will be working on the physics, so that question has been taken care off.

So......... will we see this in S2 or is it expeceted in S3?

PLEASE, SIMPLE YES OR NO QUESTION, DONT COMMENT WHY I ASKED! OR AM I NOT ABLE TO WAIT, ETC,......

Thank you.

PS
If you cant or dont want to answer the questions above, its ok aswell.

1. Possible but maybe not in the initial S2 final release, surely by S3
2. No, only in S3 (or a late late version of S2 close to the first S3 releases)
3. Same as 1

No one, not even the devs know for sure how to answer some of these questions, unless they have already developed some of these things and haven't released them.

Quote from Speed Soro :

that's where all started, and this was just the second post in this thread.

I'm sorry but you make me really mad with what you post. The upsetting part of this whole thread for me is the tone of your original post. With your "we need this - we need that" attitude you think you are expressing the oppinion of all LFS drivers here. Wake up and get a grip to reality, the fact that you're getting so much replies here is not an indication that people agree with your point of view, quite the opposite I would say.

Moreover, I for one am getting so bored with this request for updates crap, reminds me of the RSC days of this forum... at time I hoped was over once and for all when the LFSforum went its own way. This thread, sadly, proves me wrong.

Quote from [Falkowski83 :

Here is where you are completely wrong bud. The developers MUST listen to us. WE are CUSTOMERS. We PAID for a PRODUCT.

<snip>

And I know I have the RIGHT to DEMAND updates, because I PAID for a PRODUCT.

If that's your oppinion, I invite you to look for an officially supported SimBim forum and demand updates there... Get back to us and see how far you get.

You seem to forget the fact that end-users of LFS actually have the means of discussing stuff with the devs through these forums. Don't abuse that privilige by posting things that are not true, wasting the devs time and patience.

If you believe you haven't got what you paid for so far (full S2) you should have read the disclaimer before making the transaction.

Wim

Quote from whendrix :

If that's your oppinion, I invite you to look for an officially supported SimBim forum and demand updates there... Get back to us and see how far you get.

You seem to forget the fact that end-users of LFS actually have the means of discussing stuff with the devs through these forums. Don't abuse that privilige by posting things that are not true, wasting the devs time and patience.

If you believe you haven't got what you paid for so far (full S2) you should have read the disclaimer before making the transaction.

Wim

As I am going to say for the 12.345.123.635,37 time, I said that based on consumer laws. I have the right to do that. Not that I want to. And not that the developers will listen to me.

But now we've come across an important issue: the Simbin product is a finished product. It can be full of bugs, physics errors, but they release it as a finished product. Yes, I can "demand" updates and the physics I find right, but they can just state that they already delivered me the finished thing.

Now with LFS, you pay for the expectation of the product (please, don't start flaming me here now. I KNOW how the proccess works and how things are done), so theoretically you have the right to demand the final version that you already paid for.

And about the disclaimer and end user license agreement: this is considered a "click wrap" contract. When you don't have to read it all. You have an option to click 'next', and you don't read that. These kind of contracts are believed to be harmful to the consumer, as there can be a lot of prohibitive clauses, that just wouldn't make sense, and everybody would click 'next' and never reading that. If I did not made myself clear, please ask where the post was confusing for you and I'll try to explain better the "click-wrap" contracts and how they work when you are facing a litigation.

As for the right to talk to the devs, don't be mistaken, please. I know we have the right to exchange ideas with them and they ask us 'directly' what we want new about the game. And for the mainstream companies, the developers may not talk to the consumers, but I for one know that they read the forums to know what is the overall feel of the product within the consumers (one nice example is EA Games and 2K Sports when it comes to the video game sports titles. If you go to OperationSports.com, you'll see that some of the developers actually listen to what the consumers have to say)

[ ]'s

Actually, as far as I know, you are allowed to pre-pay for LFS S2, with the disclaimer that they don't know when it will be released, or what features it may or may not have.

As a subsequent 'gesture' we are allowed to download, unlock and use the Alpha version of the software we pre-paid for, again on the understanding that it isn't complete, there might be bugs (which is why it was released in some ways), and that we just have to sit back and wait for any updates as and when they come.

You do not, and never will, have the right to demand ANYTHING from the developers. Not even a refund, because the Terms and Conditions make it quite clear that payments, either for a product, in advance of a product, or as a donation cannot be refunded (at least, after 30 days has elapsed anyways).

This is just an another moaning thread discuised as a somekind of great developtment improvment, fanboyismn and consumer-law issue. This makes me kinda mad.

Fistly, this "end user license agreement" thingy, if you dont read it and click ok, thats your fault. You just cant say it means nothing because I didnt read it.

Quote from Falkowski83 :

the Simbin product is a finished product. It can be full of bugs, physics errors, but they release it as a finished product. Yes, I can "demand" updates and the physics I find right, but they can just state that they already delivered me the finished thing.

Now with LFS, you pay for the expectation of the product (cut) , so theoretically you have the right to demand the final version that you already paid for.

All games a paid by expectations. And LFS devs could do like Simbin. They could release a patch which would remove the alpha text and say "ok, here is your S2", no fixing of bugs or anything, and of they go to Bahamas. All people have freedom of speach and you can demand anything you like, I can demand half of Sweden, but I think they dont have to give it to me. But in this case devs havent said anything about the release so you really cant hurry them up. But I think you allready knew that right

edit. tristan said it better, and I agree

I'll just make sure i wont make the same mistake twice.

I wont be pre-ordering anything ever again.

Quote from Falkowski83 :

...

So, the main thing you "mock" about is (and that is probably only because you as a lawyer notice such things) that there's no "I have read and agree to the terms" checkbox that prevents clicking the next button before it's checked?

Do you really think that changes anything, or makes anyone read the terms before? Actually, the chance that the LFS "Agreement" is read is way higher than most of the installer-included EULAs simply because it's much shorter. All those "consumer protecting" tricks like checkboxes or having to scroll down the EULA does nothing. The average user isn't slowed down by such measurements at all, actually he's expecting that there's a checkbox somewhere on the EULA screen so he can proceed to the next step within tenths of seconds.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

Personally I think all this consumer protection is important against companies that actively try to fool people into false assumptions to harvest their money. I can nowhere see that with LFS.

Quote from whendrix :

...

If this annoys you, wait till all the threads start popping up early next year, saying that LFS was meant to be released in 2005 according to the videos. I agree fully with what you say though.

Let me then refrese the question.

I bought my licence with a "in box" CD from live-for-speed.de. Now, that was some months ago. I asked them why is the delay of the CD? The answer was plane and simple: "LFS isnt finished, its still ALPHA, we cannot send you an unfinished product. I can burn you a cd if you want with the ALPHA version". Whats wrong with this sentence?

Dont get me wrong, I really like LFS and dont have anything against the game. Just dont like getting "ript off". I guess it will be "published" when S3 comes out, which i definitly wont buy "in a box".

Ok, that i wanted to say Its the only thing i find "negative" that has conections with LFS.


Let me just add that LFS could be so much more fun with some more add ons like people are saying here. But its not for us to decide whats next to do on the scedual. Lets just hope for the best

how were you "ript off" ? because you havn't recieved a CD?

SD,