I've been playing racing sims for several years now, since Revs on the BBC , and LFS since it was first introduced. In fact I have owned and played almost every PC simulator released.

A few months ago I had the pleasure of driving a Caterham on track and after that experience I was extremely pleased to try LFS again as the handling was simulated so well. Top marks.

Initially I played mostly GPL and LFS but then switched to GTR2 and rFactor's '79 mod. It wasn't until I test drove the Caterham in real life that I went back to LFS.

Now the reason for this post is that I just can't understand why LFS is lacking so much in the area of AI and Sound. I seem to remember the AI in S1 to have been pretty good but now in the current version it is absolutely horrendous. It seems to ignore other cars on the track and any race usually ends up with the AI cars spinning off at the same corner again and again.

For those of us who love the game's physics online play is very often not an option so good AI is needed. The online races do not have the correct tracks or cars for testing, and we just want a quick good race now.

The second complaint is about the sound. I have read suggestions here on the forum that the generated sound is better than samples because it tells you what the engine is doing? Well the only thing the engine communicates is the revs, that's it. And samples communicate revs just as well as generated sounds. The difference is that samples immerse you into the game, just as in real life while the generated sound reminds you of a 80s pop band. Driving and listening to any of then GTR2 cars and then (for the physics) going back to LFS just makes me want to weep.

Sorry. I just had to get this off my chest.

AI are updates are in the next patch and you are wrong about the sounds (use the search to find out why).

Quote from karlth :

The second complaint is about the sound. I have read suggestions here on the forum that the generated sound is better than samples because it tells you what the engine is doing? Well the only thing the engine communicates is the revs, that's it. And samples communicate revs just as well as generated sounds.

What they mean is that the sound changes depending on how much throttle is applied at what rpm. For example, full throttle in a high gear at low speed will sound as though the engine is under greater load than in a lower gear. This helps gives an indication of what sort of power is on tap in any given gear. Other games that use samples usually only adjust the volume instead of simulating engine load.

Also, the engine sounds in LFS are generated in a realistic manner in that they're created from simulated explosions in each cylinder and then modified with different filters, etc, that simulate how the sound would change as it passes through the various parts of the exhaust, etc, as well as how it is muffled inside the cockpit. The sound you hear is the result of a fairly complex series of modifiers.

P.S. RBR does a pretty good job using samples, though the end result doesn't sound that great IMO.

Here is a video of a Porsche 911 RS in GTR2 using multi sampled sounds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfypFIYg_Ww

And here is a video from LFS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxk9nALX6t8

I have driven several GT cars on track and frankly LFS is producing sounds that I've never heard before. Especially at low revs and during gearshifts.

Are you talking about the gear whine? You can tone it down if you don't like it by pressing Shift+A. And about strange noises when shifting gears? Maybe you're talking about the fact that the throttle doesn't cut when you shift up. There's also an option for enabling that.

Quote from shiny_red_cobra :

Are you talking about the gear whine? You can tone it down if you don't like it by pressing Shift+A. And about strange noises when shifting gears? Maybe you're talking about the fact that the throttle doesn't cut when you shift up. There's also an option for enabling that.

For example at 0:25s in the LFS video and then during the gearshifts out of the corner.

The terribly crossfaded sounds in GTR2 make me want to vomit.

The main thing you're hearing in the UFR is the gear whine. When the car shifts coming out of that corner, the revs go up (because the driver is flatshifting, keeping his foot planted on the gas), storing a bit of extra energy in the flywheel. When the next gear is engaged, that energy is released (along with the full power of the engine) and the wheels spin (keep in mind the UFR is a powerful front-wheel drive car). The noise you hear there is the gear whine as the wheels spin and then slow down to match the vehicle's speed. The gear whine also changes in tone and volume as the load on the drivetrain varies.

Transmission noise is also synthesized. In other games using pre-recorded sound samples for transmission noise, you can't reproduce that kind of "funny noises" while heavy downshifting like in the vid at 0:25.

Thanks to LFS's basicly non-existant engine damage and few other things, the way you can just abuse the engine and gearbox isn't exactly realistic and it heavily affects the outcome of the sound also... For example the flatshifting sound. It's horrible but it's not exactly fault of the sound engine.

Despite your real GT car experience, you just need to learn to hear the difference in games better between more accurate, dynamic generated/synthesized sound vs. more immersive, way less accurate pre-recorded sound samples. Just take a car (for example XRT, FOX, FO8, XFR or FXR) for a "cruise" drive in LFS and listen how smoothly the revs drop and raise under different engine loads. On some other cars, like the BMW Sauber and FZR, the sound engine does suck... It's also possible to create more "raw" sound but the sound engine just can't take it and causes clipping. I think DaveWS has already taken the current sound engine to the limit, especially compared how LFS did sound before patch released in March (make sure you're using the latest version, which is Patch X).

E.g. GTR2 (and nearly all other games too using samples) are using only 4 different sound samples to create the engine sound. One sound for "idle", "low", "medium" and "high" rpms, of course the game multisamples sounds together but with four samples it's just not possible to be as accurate. Best way to explain is that synthesized sounds works a bit like virtual engine instead of playbacking pre-recorded sounds samples.

I'm not saying the sound in LFS is perfect, pretty far from it but it's currently best of the bunch... from bunch of two: LFS and netKar Pro are the only games that has taken the harder way of implementing sounds. If the amount of sound samples does not drastically change (from 4 samples to hundreds, or even thousands), synthesized will be the way of the future.

Be good to hear the sound from a video of the UFR before patch X. I'm sure it would sound a lot different and show how far the LFS sounds have actually come. Anyone have one?

As they've already told you...
At least AI improvement is the NEXT major thing to come to LFS.
Scawen himself told us that, so... rejoice.

Quote from karlth :

I have driven several GT cars on track and frankly LFS is producing sounds that I've never heard before. Especially at low revs and during gearshifts.

LFS isn't trying to sound like a particular car. LFS is trying to simulate the way the pitch of your engine changes as you control the throttle. Samples can never do that and that is why they are inferior. In LFS whenever you make a slight change in throttle pressure you can hear that change, just like in a real car. This helps the driver to understand what the car is doing and helps to predict the behaviour of the car. The difference between this dynamically generated sound compared to sampled sounds that raise in pitch independent of the driver's actions is quite marked.

From the point of view of a racing simulator you are closer to the real thing with dynamic sounds than with samples like you hear in GTR2. LFS won't make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, that's true, but as a driver you will be better at controlling the throttle and improving your shifts points thanks to the real time feedback.

Well karlth,

It looks like you just have to learn to like the LFS sound.

For me, it doesn't matter how "realistic" the sounds in other simulators are. I've learnt to look (hear?) past the "fantastically realistic" samples and have come to depend on the feedback I get from the LFS sound engine, even if it sounds a bit "raw" at times.

Some LFS cars sound better than others, this is probably due to how much time the LFS enthusiast (DaveWS (I think) who is responsible for the current sounds) has spent editing the sound engine for each car. In other words, there is probably scope for improvment. This is not to be taken as a critique of Daves work, I am thankful to Dave for his effort and think he did a great job.

You may be able to use your PCs sound card settings applet to improve LFS sound. But, "realistically", you are better off learning to hear the nuances the LFS sound engine is able to communicate.

Quote :

Well the only thing the engine communicates is the revs, that's it.

No, thats not it. You are kidding, right?

The AI needs work, I agree with you there. Apparently, the devs are working on this now. I look forward to whatever they're gonna come up with.

I agree with you on the AI, but IMO, the AI should be taken out completely, I really can't see any reason it's there, LFS is an ONLINE simulator, and in the days of fast net connections, I can see little reason to use the AI.
As for the sounds, I am in two minds about them, I do like the synthetic sampled sounds in GTL, but I also understand the reason why LFS sounds like it does.
It (in it's current state) is MILES better than it was, and using the CTRL+A system, you can make them sound better if you wish.

Quote from danowat :

I agree with you on the AI, but IMO, the AI should be taken out completely, I really can't see any reason it's there, LFS is an ONLINE simulator, and in the days of fast net connections, I can see little reason to use the AI.
As for the sounds, I am in two minds about them, I do like the synthetic sampled sounds in GTL, but I also understand the reason why LFS sounds like it does.
It (in it's current state) is MILES better than it was, and using the CTRL+A system, you can make them sound better if you wish.

Reasons:
- Not many different combos available online! You can't find one you want to play at this time.
- Your internet connection is heavily used (P2P?)
- You don't know the track and you don't want to play alone. Some people are not tolerant towards someone who is actually training during their race!
- You want to play an unclean game.
- You don't have much time to spare at this time. A game against AI can be started in no time and last for as long as you want. To play online you need to look for a game + wait for the race to start +The number of laps may not suit your available time.

Edit: I almost forget a very important one. You want to win a Race (that's for the slow drivers like me )

Quote from Maelstrom :

Reasons:
- Not many different combos available online! You can't find one you want to play at this time.
- Your internet connection is heavily used (P2P?)
- You don't know the track and you don't want to play alone. Some people are not tolerant towards someone who is actually training during their race!
- You want to play an unclean game.
- You don't have much time to spare at this time. A game against AI can be started in no time and last for as long as you want. To play online you need to look for a game + wait for the race to start +The number of laps may not suit your available time.

Edit: I almost forget a very important one. You want to win a Race (that's for the slow drivers like me )

Never get any objections on a restart either if i cock up one more time

I took a break from racing sims for a short while. When I started playing again last month, I thought it would be a nice change of pace to try GTR2. I am so glad I did because it made me appreciate just how good LFS really is. Besides the Dubai track (which I really liked), I did not experience anything in GTR2 that really appealed to me. I found it to be nothing more than an updated GTR. Whoop-ti-doo. Although I absolutely love the deep and authentic car sounds in the other ISI sim, GT:Legends, I find the car sounds in LFS more useful. Just listening to the different pitches as the cars in LFS accelerate and decelerate provides me crucial feedback beyond mere visuals. Furthermore, the sounds in LFS are better at relaying the position, audibly, of the other cars around me. Combine this with the echo effects and I have no real complaints.

Because LFS is primarily an online race sim, it is understandable that the AI be given a lower priority in development. However, I do use the AI on occasion. The reason for this simple. It allows me to practice racing "in the pack" without ruining someone's race in an online session. As for now, the AI sticks to a pretty strict line and doesn't present much of a challenge. However, the AI's mostly predictable behavior is adequate for these types of practice sessions. I can practice running close to other cars without touching, get a feel for, and adjust my braking distances as cars ahead of me approach turns (which is way different from the "flat-out" style of hotlapping), learn the near exact location of a competitor's car by it's sound relative to my position, and practice recovering/controlling my car when I get rear-ended by the AI.
Practicing off-line on occasion can certainly benefit everyone's experience when they step on-line.

Re sounds, there's an add-on tool that people have been using called CSR, which overlays the default sounds with conventional samples. Not just for engines, but other sounds as well. I had a bit of an experiment with it again last night and today, and I realized I greatly prefer the synthesized sounds.

Hmm, I dunno. Maybe it comes down to habit... If you're used to sampled sounds, you'll have a negative first impression of the synthesized sounds. And perhaps vice versa. The fact is CSR is there if you want to use it, you can try loading in your own samples too, if you have any. Both the synthesized system and the add-on sampled system are very tweakable, so there's room for change, but perhaps not stunning improvements. As mentioned, DaveWS has gone through (I think) both systems with a fine toothed analytic comb and tried to get the best sounds possible.

I await further evolution of the synthesized system, which will hopefully bring in even more realism. For now, no complaints.

Quote from Electrik Kar :

I await further evolution of the synthesized system, which will hopefully bring in even more realism. For now, no complaints.

Hopefully Scawen does not forget the sound area for next 2 years like it was before the sound patch Now would be great time to take some huge lead in sythesized sound and show for the unbelievers what else it can do...

Maybe little ironic that without that certain clown (Kidcodea), who revealed/leaked the sound editor shortcut key, we would still have the Patch V sounds that IMHO were pretty much as bad as before that, including the airplane tranny whine. Of course, we can't know was the sound editor supposed to be announced officially later...

If someone (thread OP) is still interested about CSR, here's a complete installation guide... just checked, all download links are still working: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=311949

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Quote from deggis :

Thanks to LFS's basicly non-existant engine damage and few other things, the way you can just abuse the engine and gearbox isn't exactly realistic and it heavily affects the outcome of the sound also... For example the flatshifting sound. It's horrible but it's not exactly fault of the sound engine.

That's the key point to the whole sound thing fro mine. I agree that it comes down to how the car is allowed to be driven, and therefore the lack of engine damage.

@danowat I think the AI should be left in and improved. If anything, to make the product more marketable.
I'm interested in the comment about the AI being better in S1 though. Was it changed? Why? Tell me more!

Quote from farcar :

I'm interested in the comment about the AI being better in S1 though. Was it changed? Why? Tell me more!

I would say that the AI for the S1 cars hasnt changed. But as we basically still have the S1 AI it ant control the much faster S2 cars very well. That would be my guess.

IIRC the AI coding hasnt been significantly changed since the release of S1 and the tyre physics has changed alot with heat, wear, flatspots and deformation ect the AI has no concept of this and drive like it

I think the AI code is being worked on, and Im sure will be improved in a future patch

SD.

Quote from deggis :

H
Maybe little ironic that without that certain clown (Kidcodea), who revealed/leaked the sound editor shortcut key, we would still have the Patch V sounds that IMHO were pretty much as bad as before that, including the airplane tranny whine. Of course, we can't know was the sound editor supposed to be announced officially later...

Why make ridiculous speculations like this? Scawen had already told us that he was working on improved sounds.

Quote from Gunn :

Why make ridiculous speculations like this? Scawen had already told us that he was working on improved sounds.

I was talking about the sound editor. As far as I remember at the time when Kid revealed it, patch V with the slightly improved sounds was already released.... patch finished - I'd guess work on the sounds was done at that point for a while. Then people started editing the sounds and DaveWS obviously did good joob and then Scawen decided to include those in Patch W (and in the test patches). I just speculated that without this sound editor leak, we might still have Patch V sounds.

Remember that Patch V (and not W) was the first patch with sound improvements. V only had slightly tuned sounds with new features such as the tranny sound, that work was made by Scawen himself. IMHO the difference in the end was very small compared to version U and everything before that since S2 release. Patch W with DaveWS edits was the patch that made a huge difference for me at least.

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Scawen (i think) did say though that he was going to work on them more, after patch V. You never know, if it wasn't for Dave, Scawen might have instead spent all his time enhancing and perfecting the engine, and tweaking the sounds, and by now we'd have awesome spectacular better than real-life sounds in surround sound!

/goes off to find Dave

Quote from Electrik Kar :

Scawen (i think) did say though that he was going to work on them more, after patch V. You never know, if it wasn't for Dave, Scawen might have instead spent all his time enhancing and perfecting the engine, and tweaking the sounds, and by now we'd have awesome spectacular better than real-life sounds in surround sound!

/goes off to find Dave

I remember him saying that too, but like I said the patch V was already released, meaning for a while that work was finished on those features. Scawen doesn't usually release WIP/unfinished stuff. But good that the sound editor leak happened and DaveWS took full use of it so Scawen could do something else like pre-work for (in that point upcoming) the 32 player support