This suggestion is relative. It can be either an improvement or just a simple suggestion (wich is not an improvement, just a different thing to produce almost the same effect or...) Enough.

I've been wandering, it would be nicer(or not?) if the engine sound wasnt preset and then modded by the ingame sound editor, but, it could be like GTR 2, where it has different sound files and, depending on the car/rev/situation, it would play a sound file and loop it (i think thats how GTR 2 works kinda) this way i think the car sounds would be much better to mod (like adding new sound files instead of adjusting the base sound).

If you like, maybe instead of that, you could just make it so you could replace the base sound of the engine, and THEN mod it inside the game. (but i guess the options would be different since i guess the actual engine sound is hard coded and builds up depending on the setting, and a preset sound file already has it build and you could only adjust thing that can be done with any sound file)

I dont find the basic sounds bad (and DaveW's sounds are pretty good) but... thats i thing ive been wondering.

PS: in case anyone knows, are the base engine sound equal to all of the cars? (like they only difference is the options in it)

thanks.

Using pre-sampled sounds would be a step backwards...

I don't understand why everyone likes pre-sampled sounds...they give no feedback to what the car is doing...

This has been discussed to death a couple times.

Quote from Homeless_Drunk :

Using pre-sampled sounds would be a step backwards...

I don't understand why everyone likes pre-sampled sounds...they give no feedback to what the car is doing...

Because they are not racers at heart. They are not trying to use sim racing as a means because they can't trackday or race for real, but as a game and don't have the understanding of feedback.

Quote from mrodgers :

Because they are not racers at heart. They are not trying to use sim racing as a means because they can't trackday or race for real, but as a game and don't have the understanding of feedback.

A racer by heart would be actually racing and not bothering with game.

Regardless reason people ask for it is simple. LFS Cars don't sound as real as GTR2 or pre sampled sounds.
As for feedback i never really experienced any that wasn't emulated using sampled sounds.

That said, i rather the calculated sounds. Its a step in the right direction, it offers way more diversity down the road. but right now i would say its like 15% complete before it justifies going calculated instead of sampled.
also easier for devs aswell

Quote from Homeless_Drunk :

Using pre-sampled sounds would be a step backwards...

I don't understand why everyone likes pre-sampled sounds...they give no feedback to what the car is doing...

If everyone likes pre-sampled sounds, then that makes you the only one who doesn't Pre-sampled engine sounds FTW then

Quote from breadfan :

If everyone likes pre-sampled sounds, then that makes you the only one who doesn't Pre-sampled engine sounds FTW then

Please speak for yourself... The majority of LfS users likes the information given by the synthesized sounds...

Basically, LfS' users care less about HOW something looks or sounds rather than how MUCH information it gives the driver... And the amount of information LfS gives me I've yet to see in any other sim...

I've played a little with the sims that use the sample method, to me they initially sound great, but as you play you soon realise they are very simplisitic, rather limited in scope and quickly become a bit boring. Very uninformative too. The transition from the "no load" sound to the "full load" sound was pretty bad too, leaving this wassive blank in the middle. Doesn't help you squeeze the throttle out of corners, you lose one clue as to how hard you've got your foot down.

With Car Sound Remixer you can do the editing like you described...

Link(s) in my sig.

I find it odd how some dudes in here appear to hate everything that could be an improvement to LFS!

Still, I hope developers will continue to improve LFS, probably adopting a mixed bag of sampled/synthetic sounds.

Face it boys, synth sounds are unreal, and this is supposed to be a simulation.

Quote from Bodhidharmazen :

Face it boys, synth sounds are unreal, and this is supposed to be a simulation.

No, it is supposed to be a simulator. Real time feedback is more important than audio bling.

Quote from Gunn :

No, it is supposed to be a simulator. Real time feedback is more important than audio bling.

Why no BOTH???????

Quote from Bodhidharmazen :

Why no BOTH???????

Feedback to the driver is impossible with sampled sound, but 'audio bling' is possible with synthesized sound.

Ok guys, I spent the time doing a side by side comparo. Two computers, same audio board, one running LFS the other rFactor. Same car on both, the Sauber BMW. I plugged a nice set of headphones to have zero distractions from external world.

I dont know what some of you are talking about as sampled sounds giving "no feedback" yeah... right...

It is a delightful experience, the car sounds glorious, and you get all the feedback you need when running half gas, or full gas, or decelerating, you name it.

Get on the machine running LFS. What a deception. Really.

Now... I know LFS physics are superior, and dont get me wrong, I love the product (I have an LFS license and have not bought rFactor, ok??)

BUT

The sounds and the graphics are seriously behind rFactor's.


EDIT:

Results match what some dudes say in here with other cars, I tested the green car in rFactor and yes... no feedback, just a dull sampling.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Feedback to the driver is impossible with sampled sound, but 'audio bling' is possible with synthesized sound.

Nope. Sorry. I don't buy it.

Quote from Bodhidharmazen :

Ok guys, I spent the time doing a side by side comparo. Two computers, same audio board, one running LFS the other rFactor. Same car on both, the Sauber BMW. I plugged a nice set of headphones to have zero distractions from external world.

Not good compare because everyone knows BF1 sound is worst and most obvious drawback. Use some of the cars that actually sounds ok, like XFR or FXR.

Quote from Bodhidharmazen :

It is a delightful experience, the car sounds glorious, and you get all the feedback you need when running half gas, or full gas, or decelerating, you name it.

Did you know e.g. rFactor and GTR2 uses only 3 or 4 sound sample files? One for "idle", "low", "medium" and "high" throttle. How can that be accurate? Yes, of course you hear if you accelerate but you can't hear engine, that's important part of feedback.

Synthesized sound can only get better. I'm just afraid Scawen won't give it enough attention. DaveWS said he has some new improvement ideas but does Scawen have time...

You seem to be registered in May 2007, have you played LFS before that? Do you even know how BAD it sounded before the "sound patch" in March? Check compare videos here That is huge improvement especially because all work was done in a compatible patch that surely have had some limitations regarding the sound engine.

Quote from Bodhidharmazen :

It is a delightful experience, the car sounds glorious, and you get all the feedback you need when running half gas, or full gas, or decelerating, you name it.

With sampled sounds like in rFactor or GTR what feedback are you getting when you are 9/10ths throttle? What feedback are you getting when you are running at 1/4 throttle? You are getting only three or four sounds no matter how much throttle you apply. There is no indication of what strain the engine is under or how quickly the engine revs are rising or falling. So therefore the audible feedback from the engine in these games is a bit of a guessing game. You don't know at any time what the engine is actually doing.

I would ask you what type of controller you are using? If you are using analogue pedals and you still don't understand the benefits of real-time sounds then I would suggest that you aren't lapping as fast as you potentially are able, you could be going much faster. Throttle control is a major component in being fast and consistent. Being able to adjust the throttle incrementally makes a huge difference to your lap times and the wear on your tyres over the course of the race. If you can't hear the difference between those incremental changes then you have less of an idea about the effectiveness of your actions.

LFS provides the type of audible engine feedback that a driver of a real car would rely on and use to his advantage. It is more important to listen to what your engine is doing than it is to worry about how cool it sounds. We all look forward to improvements that would make the engines sound more like the real thing acoustically, but we don't want to sacrifice the very realistic phenomenon of real time audible feedback.

Yep, synth over sampled for me aswell. I tend to use the sound the engine makes to tell if I have the best diff settings so I am listening for very subtle dips or spikes in revs. That is something that is just not possible with samples.

Would it be possible to combine the two? Would it be a serious CPU hog to use a selection of samples for each of the sounds that combine to make the current LFS engine noise? Although I guess you'd probably lose some of the accuracy somewhere along the line.

I don't have a problem with the sounds as they are though. They tell me what I need to know, which is important. And with the selection of sounds and customisability available now there's no reason to stick with a sound you hate.

Quote from Dajmin :

Would it be possible to combine the two? Would it be a serious CPU hog to use a selection of samples for each of the sounds that combine to make the current LFS engine noise? Although I guess you'd probably lose some of the accuracy somewhere along the line.

I don't have a problem with the sounds as they are though. They tell me what I need to know, which is important. And with the selection of sounds and customisability available now there's no reason to stick with a sound you hate.

I think a combination of the two methods has potential. I believe that our sound cards are also a limiting factor, and by that I mean that I believe there is a limit to the possibilities. CPU is probably also a factor.

Quote :

With sampled sounds like in rFactor or GTR what feedback are you getting when you are 9/10ths throttle? What feedback are you getting when you are running at 1/4 throttle? You are getting only three or four sounds no matter how much throttle you apply.

I think this is where pitch comes in. When CSR came out I really found it difficult to understand just where the extra information purportedly was coming from with the synth engine, as both approaches seemed to use pitch to convey all needed information. Maybe the synth approach is more complex now and gives additional information (I don't know engines so well, so what I do pick up from the sound is transferred simply over time into an intuitive reaction based on my experience with the game.. I don't have any real undertstanding of the simulated mechanics behind it).

But.. when I questioned what else was going on with the synth sounds, I got quite murky replys. I guess, what I want to know is- what other information do you rely on apart from revs? People say that with samples, they don't know when to shift, but I could do it just by remembering what pitch the engine tone needed to be at. It was no more or less easy a thing than with the synth method.

For the record, as stated elsewhere, I do like the synth sounds better now- I just have a bit of a hard time undertstanding the "Feedback to the driver is impossible with sampled sound" argument.

I'm sure you guys can help me out.

gee.. again?

If a synth is generating sounds, than im fine with it,

after all, it isn't finished...

imagine, it could sound better than you think one day when they get around to finishing the existing generator!

GPL's 1997 technology uses .wav engine samples and the feedback's fine for me - but then, the feeling of actually being in the car is so well done that it could be the deciding factor (I haven't even tried GPLSO, the GPL sound addon, yet - they tell me it's a whole new galaxy of sounds).

But I really like the concept of the LFS synth-sound engine (innovative, unique, just like the whole game really) and I think it has the potential to be really immersive, perhaps even bar-raising in terms of racing game sound (especially if it retains the customisability we have now). I agree that it definitely leaves a bit to be desired in terms of the raw metal sound I expect from a gnarly race-tuned car engine (especially when driving a GTR). Having said that, I think that changing it around at this stage of development (we're not even at beta stage yet) would be a backward step for the team.

Quote from Electrik Kar :

I think this is where pitch comes in. When CSR came out I really found it difficult to understand just where the extra information purportedly was coming from with the synth engine, as both approaches seemed to use pitch to convey all needed information. Maybe the synth approach is more complex now and gives additional information (I don't know engines so well, so what I do pick up from the sound is transferred simply over time into an intuitive reaction based on my experience with the game.. I don't have any real undertstanding of the simulated mechanics behind it).

But.. when I questioned what else was going on with the synth sounds, I got quite murky replys. I guess, what I want to know is- what other information do you rely on apart from revs? People say that with samples, they don't know when to shift, but I could do it just by remembering what pitch the engine tone needed to be at. It was no more or less easy a thing than with the synth method.

For the record, as stated elsewhere, I do like the synth sounds better now- I just have a bit of a hard time undertstanding the "Feedback to the driver is impossible with sampled sound" argument.

I'm sure you guys can help me out.

An engine just doesn't change it's pitch, the whole sound changes depending on how much throttle you have on (as the load of the engine and thus the firing bang changes, there is more gas flowing through the exhaust and so on) and what gear you are in... Having just a few samples of 1 or 2 given rpms where you change the pitch will NEVER give you as accurate sounds as a synthesized engine sound...

Tris, correct me if I'm wrong...