Quote from RichardTowler :

90% do not mind car damage

And which survey are you referring to here, in which 90% of them said they didn't mind car damage?

Quote from sinbad :

There's more than one thing GT4 is crap at, but if you had to narrow it down to one major thing which is totally crap in GT4, it would have to be the racing.

All you get with the replays is the same crap racing, but shown in nicely lit graphics with good camera angles. GT4 is about as far from the "essence of racing" as any game could be. It's about time-attacks, track unlocking and car-collecting.

edit:
This applies to multiplayer too, because in their efforts to make it as safe (read:dull) as possible, they gave the cars the collision model from a bumper car fairground ride.

sorry, I meant driving, not racing yes, the racing in GT4 is awful

Quote from STROBE :

And which survey are you referring to here, in which 90% of them said they didn't mind car damage?

just a general number out my head that I feels represents the number, seriously, every single racing game I've played has damage now, apart from the GT series, for example, gtr, gtl, nascar, project gotham racing, rallisport challenge, world racing, wrc games, formula 1 games.

GT series is a huge marketing thing for the car makers, and I'm sure put in a position, be included or not they'd suffer damage on there cars just to get in the game.

Quote from RichardTowler :

just a general number out my head that I feels represents the number, seriously, every single racing game I've played has damage now, apart from the GT series, for example, gtr, gtl, nascar, project gotham racing, rallisport challenge, world racing, wrc games, formula 1 games.

GT series is a huge marketing thing for the car makers, and I'm sure put in a position, be included or not they'd suffer damage on there cars just to get in the game.

And the games you mentioned are supported by a series, and manufacturers have nothing to say in their creation... Except for few.

EAs NFS series has gone without damage for a long time, simply because the manufacturers didn't allow it...

I'm pretty sure it's the other way around... No damage system in the game to get a car in it people would want to drive goes a long way with current day publishers.

Quote from RichardTowler :

I disagree, there is a huge chance for a racing simulation to become mainstream, and I don't mean mainstream NFS style. It just has to be good enough to step it to that challenge, as imo there is a huge market just waiting for a simulation that blows everyone away.

GT Legends tried to approarch this but simply a simulation and a mainstream game will never work together.

Quote from RichardTowler :

90% do not mind car damage, its why virtually every single other car game allows damage but they are so many cars in GT4, it would require every single model to be recreated, as you can't just have a flat 3d model, you have to model the different parts of the car in 3d that fall off or get damage I believe which increases the polygon count no end along with the time needed to add cars.

Bullshit. They could make a dynamic car damage (like LFS) so the huge number of cars wouldn't be a problem. But you can see the devs haven't even tried "simulating" crashes or any kind of damage. Cars don't even flip over etc. And what's the most ridiculous thing: this aspect hasn't change since GT1. GT4 fanboys defend themselves saying that crashing other cars is not a part of racing (lol).

That's just backpedaling. Back when GT1 was just out, most of the players agreed the crashing auto-pilot got in the way of immersion.
There were a lot of places where you could cheat thanks to the car's fake gravity... the left-right kink before the S/F line on that mountain track, for one.

Quote from RichardTowler :

but that is you making the wrong asumption that realism is a bad thing and the only way to make a popular game is to be hardcade, and that is where i think people have it wrong

Well, for me the realism is the thing that made me love 'em :twirl:

But can you really say that a racing/driving simulator can be hugely popular without having hugely powerful cars, real cars and real tracks? And more importantly without having those arcade modes?

The GT4 is a realistic simulator for those average gamers that haven't played any real simulators. Like some good console flying simulator is very good and realistic until you try some real simulators like X-plane or MS flight simulator. When I played the Gran Turismo 1 for the first time years ago I thought this is the most realistic game I have played. But I knew that it had some serious "realism bugs" and after all it is not realistic. More like the playability of the game is excellent not the realism.

And this really sums up what I am trying to say. I can't give you just one good reason why realism can't make it.

It's the playability that makes a game popular. It's about how fun it is. For me LFS is more fun than GTs and GTRs, but in sense of playability I should choose GT(4): It's less frustrating, I can drive a lot more good cars, I have a goal to go after and a single spin won't ruin my tires. But I still choose LFS.

Like in FPS games, you can have very realistic weapons which do real-like damage and have real like strategic goals and stuff but the basic maneuvers are the same: running, moving around, shooting or getting shot. In realistic simulators versus arcade games the only similarity are the menus. But when you're on the track, stabbing the throttle just makes you spin, making burnouts ruin your tires and you can't get a good time if you hit the walls.

But after all it's a game, so I am not too serious about it

Quote from Tweaker :

• Race car interiors are horrible (same as road car sibling)

I'm sorry, but I just read this.... and I have to ask. have you ever watched a race? Watch the JGTC or the LeManz races, and most of the GT1-GT3 racecars still have the roadcar dash, and center console. In amateur racing that I see and participate in, most of the guys still have the full interior in their cars, and wind up just driving them home after the race. Sorry again for this being an obviously late post about this, but I had to get it off my chest.

:Takes deep breath, lets it out: "Much better"

A few buttons, metal floorpanels, carbon fibre pieces here and there, or some other 'race' stuff wouldn't hurt... but a completely stock interior in a race car as fast as these GTR cars??? Never seen it. All it has right now is a rollcage... nothing more.

Even the JGTC cars have what I just said. They DON'T have completely stock interiors If our GTR cars looked like this, it would be pretty sufficient to what they are really like.

http://racing.jbskyline.net/2001/Gallery/Bilder/Bild47.php
http://racing.jbskyline.net/2001/Gallery/Bilder/Bild48.php
http://www.macoon.net/carandma ... ts2002/Pages/Image42.html

Even the smaller class cars like SPEED World Challenge have interiors like this. Keep the interiors the way they are in the GTR cars, and that is like a sin!

Not to mention that I've never seen a race car with carpet, stock door panels, etc. Even cars in SCCA racing have Kirkey seats, stripped interiors, non-stock gauges, etc.

I'm not sure if the road cars in LFS are supposed to be mostly stock (they look stock other than the seats) or if they're supposed to be closer to the Production B class in SCCA. However; I have to think that since the suspensions are so configurable they're supposed to be race cars, not stock cars.

I'm sure we'll see new interiors in the GTR class cars (and maybe the open wheelers) eventually. Whether or not that happens with the road cars remains to be seen.

Quote from Slaughterofthesoul :

Won't let me view the site.. comes up with USER NAME / PASSWORD

site will be back asap, just sorting out some issues that happened over the weekend, sorry.

Quote from Tweaker :

A few buttons, metal floorpanels, carbon fibre pieces here and there, or some other 'race' stuff wouldn't hurt... but a completely stock interior in a race car as fast as these GTR cars??? Never seen it. All it has right now is a rollcage... nothing more.

Even the JGTC cars have what I just said. They DON'T have completely stock interiors If our GTR cars looked like this, it would be pretty sufficient to what they are really like.

http://racing.jbskyline.net/2001/Gallery/Bilder/Bild47.php
http://racing.jbskyline.net/2001/Gallery/Bilder/Bild48.php
http://www.macoon.net/carandma ... ts2002/Pages/Image42.html

Even the smaller class cars like SPEED World Challenge have interiors like this. Keep the interiors the way they are in the GTR cars, and that is like a sin!

You know, i couldn't read the review...page wanted a password. But if LFS isn't all that for him, then fine. It's not like the review is going to be a pulitzer prize nomination or whatever... Who really cares. The guy played the game annd expressed his opinions on the subject.


Going from the posts on this thread (couldn't see the review) it seems the guy left out things. Like LFS offers various types of racing. I haven't seen a drag strip on Nascar. And I don't think rFactor has a rally course.
Does ANY of the other sims/games have a parking lot?
You coulda brought up that in your review.... Physics....
just how real can sitting in front of a box be? Ever think most people that try out racing games for the first time use a KB? that LFS allows for a mouse? I don't think there's another one out there that allows a mouse.
I hated most racing games cause playing w/a kb felt so...lame. at least with the mouse it gave off some sort or feel to it.

Like I said, I havent read your review, but it seems your biggest dissappointment is the fact that LFS isn't where YOU think it should be now. LOL if that's the case, then join the club. I imagine Everyone has some sort of idea where LFS is going and where they think it SHOULD be.
But oh well, that's just the way it is. I don't think LFS will be exactly
EXACTLY what everyone will expect, but when it's done, I imagine it will be close

I don't care what they do to the interior, so long as the clocks stay.

site is back, for now, I hope for longer

For the most part I agree with the review, it seemed a little heavy handed with the critisisism but none of it was uncalled for in my book.

Everyone views LFS in a different way, for me it has always been about being able to click the mouse a couple of times and find myself on a track with 19 other racers ready to go. LFS really does have the best online racing experience this side of Project Gotham (it's not a sim but nobody can deny how fun and fluid that game is online). Yes, there are holes in the physics but at the end of the day Live For Speed is a game and everyone online is playing within the same restrictions. Is the game where the devs want it to be? No. Does it detract from the fun of the actual racing? Not one bit.

I know Live For Speed is aiming to simulate driving far more accurately than it does now (so it's fair to score the review low) but I can forgive that because racing online hassle free with people from all over the world more than makes up for whatever imperfections anyone can name.

Here endeth my unashamed gush of LFS praise.

My god, this thread is still going. Richard must feel like burnt toast :flamed:

Quote from nikimere :

My god, this thread is still going. Richard must feel like burnt toast :flamed:

I doubt it, as quite a few people agree with what he wrote (myself included). Many of us love LFS, but we're not blind to it's shortcomings.

Quote from nikimere :

My god, this thread is still going. Richard must feel like burnt toast :flamed:

haha, nah i find it interesting to discuss different thoughts on subjects illepall

I love LFS 1 but I haven't bought 2. Personally, the graphics don't bother me. But I'm going to wait until they implemented proper damage modeling to this game. Not trying to flame but it's not quite a simulation until they add that bit.

Leafer, S2's an alpha so it's still a WIP. Having said that, it's still loads of fun because the good stuff outweighs the bad/lacking/nonexistent stuff, imho. By not buying S2 now you aren't saving any money (it'll cost the same in 12 months as it does now) and you're missing out on the improved/brand new cars. For my 24 quid, S2 beats S1, even in its unfinished state.

If the lack of realistic damage modelling is what troubles you, just don't crash until the next damage patch

Hankstar,

I just bought Richard Burns rally and is saving to buy a set of wheel to play it. I've given S2 serious thought but I only have so much money at the moment. I know 24 euro is cheap by a lot of you guys' standard but it's a lot of money for someone who lives in this stinkin' 3rd world country. teh

And that's exactly my point. People like me (low in-come) are going to debate and ponder all the pros and cons before we spend what little we have. They need to have all the features down to win everyone over. I know they will one day and I hope it's soon before someone, somewhere is already discovering this lil' corner of the market. And it's only a matter of time before they come out with killer race sim.

cheers

You'd only need to pay 12 more euro to upgrade from S1 leafer.

If you don't have much money now... you better save up. Because by the time we get some REALLY fancy damage modelling, it would be in S3 (what is assumed) -- that could be a while... and that would cost 24 euro to upgrade too from S1.

I as well would love to have some better damage modelling, but what is here now is sufficient for the time being.

I recently was talking about how the cars are rather simple... no door lines, no bumper lines, etc... so the cars aren't really in 'pieces' --- or they don't look like they are in pieces. So if we had better damage modelling, Eric better think ahead, because he'd have to redo ALL of the car models to make detachable parts look correct. It all sounds like a lot of work, and I honestly think it will all come in S3.

Quote :

If you don't have much money now... you better save up. Because by the time we get some REALLY fancy damage modelling, it would be in S3 (what is assumed) -- that could be a while... and that would cost 24 euro to upgrade too from S1.

He's still going to get that fancy damage modelling even if he can't afford to upgrade, just like he got the all the new physics/language upgrades. Except for the aero effects, since S1 cars don't generate downforce. S2 and S3 licenses are just to unlock the new tracks and cars, remember?

Quote from cannonfodder :

He's still going to get that fancy damage modelling even if he can't afford to upgrade, just like he got the all the new physics/language upgrades. Except for the aero effects, since S1 cars don't generate downforce. S2 and S3 licenses are just to unlock the new tracks and cars, remember?

Problem is the hosts are seperated too. It would be nice to be able to race together S1 and S2 licencees.

Hey ppl, why do keep calling quids(pounds) euros? It's not the same thing. 12 pounds is 18euros or 21 US dollars.

I'm downloading S2 as I type this. i'm on 56K so 5 hours to go! I'm sure the phone line under this stinkin' place is corroded so add couple more hours on top of that. LOL

Will get it after I saved enough for wheel. Any suggestion as to which brand to buy? I saw a Momo FF one for around 3400 baht; about 80 usd.