Tweak, as a sorta OT note, the GT2 class that the CTRA is running, had loads of balancing testing done on it, balancing them between themselves, and the XFR/UFR, and they have great racing together, I dunno how you guys would feel to that sort of improvement, but the 3 cars are very close on nearly everything.

Quote from Tweaker :

EDIT: Oh yeah there will be things to try and help differentiate the two classes. Something on the bumper will be made for sure, but nothing big and large. I am pretty sure we will make the sunstrip visors be different colors depending on the class, and an optional number plate that will have the same coloring stripe on it or something.

When we first discussed the 2 class racing with the limited GTRs, I quickly made this kind of idea for the bumpers, but indeed... before the season starts, this will all be ready to go, and look better .



(This is just the bumper idea we first had --- Coloring is other way around for GT1 and GT2 in this pic (Very Old) --- There wont be color underneath rear wing)

I'm not so sure that little marker is going to make a difference. The way LFS built up its POV is, at least that's the way I see it, it shows you first a scrambled back in which the main color is shown. Only till you get more closer the amount of details increases and you'll get to see a difference. The time between detail view and overtaking may be too short for now (perhaps the improved hp/weight ratio could improve the time of being detailed visible and thus nullifying my point )

I know what you mean, the LOD changes for some people's PC's. But The distant LOD model of the car should at least have a noticeable stripe from a very safe and visible distance, easily. That was only a concept, could come up with other ideas.

We need to have some kind of color designation on the skins anyways, because drivers will also need to have the car # in their nickname as well... so it might not be enough room for the red/blue GT1 and GT2 text in the nick. The colored class names in the nickname really did help for identification though.... and I was a spectator. Dunno how/if it helped drivers. Perhaps the color-striped skins will be an aid to those that turn nicknames off.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

Tweak, as a sorta OT note, the GT2 class that the CTRA is running, had loads of balancing testing done on it, balancing them between themselves, and the XFR/UFR, and they have great racing together, I dunno how you guys would feel to that sort of improvement, but the 3 cars are very close on nearly everything.

The goal was to not have cars as slow as the FWD GTRs for GT2. Cornering may be ok for restricted GTRs of that level, but speed would be way too slow at that level for such big cars.

And someone mentioning that our GT2 times were only 1-2 secs shy of the FWD WR times (race times would be even slower too), it kind of gives us yet another reason to make GT2 a tad faster here.

Ok, it just came across as a good idea to me, because you were looking for a balanced GT2 class, which the CTRA one is very much so, but I guess too slow for your scope.

Quote from Tweaker :

It's only a supporting argument for increasing the power on the GT2 cars. My main complaint is the GT2 cars not being fast enough out of the corners for a brief moment, they cannot carry a fast exit speed, like extreme turbo lag or something.

I thought the racing with the two classes looked great, but GT2 could be a little quicker, it's obvious. We also don't need to try and get a "level" amount of bhp like "GT300/300bhp" for example. Just need to find something that suits the two classes nicely, and not try to fit one level of bhp... it just wont be even if you do that.

>>>>>

Our intent isn't to follow a tagline for a standardized power setting for all 3 GT2 cars, we only need to make a safe environment for both classes by way of tuning the GT2 cars to our liking, as well as balancing them. Correct me if I am wrong, but you said you used these values in a league beforehand, and said it worked great. Though in our test race the cars were not very balanced, and our only suggestion is to make them a tad quicker. We aren't talking like a 100 bhp increase here.

Test race values were FZR = 29% (304 bhp/ton), XRR = 33% (290bhp/ton), FXR = 36% (270bhp/ton). I'd estimate a change of values to something like these:

FZR = 22% (340 bhp)
XRR = 28% (340 bhp)
FXR = 27% (346 bhp)

All of these result in the GT2 cars having 314bhp/ton power to weight ratio. These are purely estimates, but should be worth a try. Either car should only need to be adjusted around +/- 10 bhp MAX. The GT1 cars only have a 150 bhp difference with these values, as opposed to the 200 bhp difference before.

Uh yeah have fun with those values, I'll tell you exactly what will happen from experience balancing these cars before. The FXR's going to dominate because of the larger use of grip and stability, and the FZR will get left in the dust.

Rather than just throw my balancing work that i did in the first place out the window, let me have a couple weekends to work with teams and get the current levels balanced. I think the new figures should look a bit like this:

FXR 34%
XRR 33%
FZR 27%

From what I observed, the only places that passing a GT2 car was difficult were in places that were already tight. Anywhere else (if the drivers involved didnt have thier head up thier arse) it was pretty easy, and the lower speeds of the GT2 cars made passing relatively quick and safe (Much safer than passing a GTi youre coming up on in a GT1 car). Similar corner entry speeds made cornering with a GT2 and GT1 in the same corner relatively safe.

And a 40KMH speed difference at the end of KY2's monster straight, to complain about that you can't be serious. Lets put that speed in context. Over here in the states we use MPH, and 40 KMH is approx 24 mph. That's less than the ordinary in town speed limit in most cities in the USA (that would be 35 in my experience). A GT1 car at full tilt doesnt come up on a GT2 car any faster than my Mercury Sable to an intersection.

Of course the GT2 cars aren't going to just leap out of a corner like the GT1 cars, they have less power. When passing a slower car whether they are a lap down or of a slower class it is the passing driver's responsibility to do so safely as much is it is the driver being passed's responsibility to be predictable. Smart drivers shouldn't find this a problem. Especially when penalties are in place for lack of respect for another class.

Think about the quality of the racing provided. SK gaming and n!Faculty went at it for several laps tooth and nail, during which many GT1 cars passed by safely. The same could be said of the battle for the GT1 lead, which was fought over a few laps and the passing of several GT2 cars. The last I saw GT2's leader was only 5 laps behind GT1's leader after 2 whole hours.

About the FWD WR's: There's no LFSW support for the GT2 cars theres nobody hot lapping them seriously and obsessively. Also the CTRA's GT2 GTR's are less powerful and heavier than the ones I brought to this group (also they were derived from my original values with tweaks to make them compatible with the FWDs lol)

Again, speed is not that much of an issue here. If we only increase power a tiny bit, what harm is done here? Do you feel offended that your values are being pinned up on the wall and stamped for change? This was a test race with a sole purpose of seeing if the values worked. Most agree it needs some tuning.

Swearing by these values and coming across as fairly unnerved that we want to increase the power A LITTLE BIT is just ridiculous. You can't sit there saying it wont work unless you test it. We tested your values, we want something changed for another test... is that so hard to comprehend?

Lets get some test values in order here, and try them.

This isn't a science fair for a 1st prize experiment. Lets get this over with.

Quote from Tweaker :

We need to have some kind of color designation on the skins anyways, because drivers will also need to have the car # in their nickname as well... so it might not be enough room for the red/blue GT1 and GT2 text in the nick. The colored class names in the nickname really did help for identification though.... and I was a spectator. Dunno how/if it helped drivers. Perhaps the color-striped skins will be an aid to those that turn nicknames off.

I had nicknames off for the entire race and I never once had trouble picking a GT1 car out from a GT2. I knew a GT1 because I suddenly got a blue flag warning and the car in my mirror grew very, very, very quickly.

Obviously the question here is how well this works for GT1 cars, though, and I have no perspective on that. I imagine the speed difference makes it pretty apparent for them, too, though.

(All that said, I do like the colored class names in the username. Perhaps we can just make the entire name red/blue in order to save some characters and accomplish the same effect?)

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

I had nicknames off for the entire race and I never once had trouble picking a GT1 car out from a GT2. I knew a GT1 because I suddenly got a blue flag warning and the car in my mirror grew very, very, very quickly.

Obviously the question here is how well this works for GT1 cars, though, and I have no perspective on that. I imagine the speed difference makes it pretty apparent for them, too, though.

(All that said, I do like the colored class names in the username. Perhaps we can just make the entire name red/blue in order to save some characters and accomplish the same effect?)

Or color the number to achieve the same effect

I don't think this is much of an issue on the straights. A GT1 driver not realizing the car ahead is damn slow should get his eyes checked. It's more something in corners, GT2 get out of the tight turns slower and this can surprise a GT1 driver. So it should be quite clear that you have a GT2 in front in order to make adjustments. I do believe we can achieve that via bumper stickers.

Well i must say, fzr cars, couldnt stand a chance in the corner or on the straight, they need 2 to 3% less air restriction. I was driving a XRR with a really bad setup so no good speed. And they were almost no match.

As for the FXR, i think the car is already too slow on the straight it needs also a bit more power so lets say 2 to 3% less air restriction, but not more then the XRR, overall i would decrease the GT2 class with 5% less air restriction, to get a little bit more fun out of the gt2 class instead of going flat out every corner without spinning off the track...

Think you guys need to decrease the GT2 air restriction in totall by 5 to 10% To get less speed difference in the classes, and also make it a bit more interesting drive then just go flat out all the way almost.

I must admit driving flat out without having the chance of spinning of the track made me sleepy and not focused and i had 2 small moments after that with a GT1 car...

In My Opinion the XRR got Perfect Air Restrictor for a GT2 Car.

Even with Flatout it was possible to spin, and you needed to go with much precission to be fast.

And Yes, for many GT1 Cars i closed the door after a few lappings, cause it was always the same, they wanted to brake in @ the limit and the slower GT2 Car needs then to pass, or go faster @ the outside.

Maybe we should try the restrictions with giving the FZR 1% less Restrictor and the FXR 2% and then make again a testrace with 1 hour.

HI!

I also had a great race last night. I allways loved 2 class racing, so now for beeing in 1, it is so nice .


But concerning the GT2. Fairly we agree that KY 2 is a fast track with mostly no problems for gt1 to past safely. But when u think of Aston, the midle sector with all that fast corners, there is 1 true line there. So making the gt2 a bit faster is imo a safety margin, that fewer accidents will happen. And at this point, i think it would be worth considering taking the Blackwood, despite we all love that track so much, out of callender. Even with 1 class, last years race was hard there, not alone 35 or so different cars. I mean if you could all stack them wery nicely in a 2 second distance range, u can fill the entire track with cars, so this could get a bit messy. But thats all to the admins to decide.

As for the race, i had much fun, and i also had 2 gt2 situations, i appologise for that. I know that GT1 is to make the pas safe, but in some situations gt2 driver(s) just didnt care about faster guys. Im used to that couse some particular team(s) is known for its brutality on track no matter the car they drive. A skin does not give you the right to be impolite, does it?

Imo it is nesesary to make some adjustements to front bumpers as well so it can also be seen what comes behind you.

Indeed, race yesterday was VERY fun, and I only had one serious scrap with a GT1 driver. For the rest of the race, both GT1 and GT2 fields behaved very well.

But as power stated above, I think we really should do another test in a not so easy track as KY2, like Blackwood. When the new balance for GT2 is sorted out (GT2 FZR was way too slow), we could go for another test run, with new restrictions and cosmetic changes to GT2 as final test before the real season starts.

next weekend I'm going to hold a balance session for teh current spec GT2 and next weekend i'll play with a higher horsepower spec (If i can find hosts for those weekends).

I'll go ahead and say that i'm not in agreement that what the class needs is more power, but if i put the work into getting these initial specs together i might as well put the work into the new specs.

hey ,
i like the balance between the gt1 and gt2 because you can brake for a gt2 when he is doing somethink what you dont aspect.

any how, i am fine with that balance, but i think that the gt2 class need too look a little bit more in the mirrors, i olso understand that it is sometimes very hard, too look that much in your mirrors when the gt2 car is fighting for a posision

but we can come there,

Reint jan

btw, why do people comment on GT2 FXR speed since noone (!) of the signed up, turned up for the race in a GT2 FXR

It was fine race. I had pretty good start but forgot to close IRC and msg's caused lag (damage) so i lost a minute draging car to pits and repairing... back on track and had great race again. Dave drove his and because of his mistake we lost more time and then his dsc, so he killed our race . GT2 is great idea and it's so fun.

I remember KY3R 24h race. I flipped XRR trying to overtake FWD GTR backmarker in corner, because he had slower speed. GT2 is great, no speed difference and it's not hard to recognize them on straights too. They just drive slower, imo we dont even need any stickers, but it would be cool to have them ^^
(btw. i have names off always)
and most of them are in XRR, and there is not so many XRR's in GT1

Sometimes you gain speed because of GT2 (drafting on oval), and sometimes you lose (driving behind between last corners in last sector, or overtaking them just before T1). But hey that's racing . I remember how i couldn't pass someone (GT1 team, can't remember that who was it now) for 3-4 laps, and we came to traffic and he had few wrong reactions with passing GT2 and i got him .

Also, GT2 makes you awake all the time. I remember few testes, me alone on track, it can be boring sometimes :/, but now because of GT2 you have to stay focused all the time.

Edit: as far as i know GT2 doesn't need to change racing line for GT1 car to pass... It's their good wile if they do. I don't like situations like with Nils, it looks like he will give you space but he wont... but after i sow him doing that once, i know how to pass him later .

Edit2: I suggest to have test on Kyoto GP Long in 2 weeks (not next week, there is BoTT round 1 next week). That track is full of corners, fast corners, chicanes, and slow corners too, straights and it's generally long. Harder for traffic then KY national, Aston GP and Westihill. But easier then Blackwood and Sothen city. IMO perfect middle

Forgot to mentin this last night, isn't the point in the GT2 class to have basicly the same cornering speed (Where possible) as apposed to the FWD GTRs?

Seen some complains about the GT1's diving down the inside into some corners and that apparently this is wrong because they are only faster on the straights, but from what I gathered most people in the GT2 class drove with 0,0 downforce.

I think they should have enough power so that atleast some downforce is needed, if not then they are still going to hold up the GT1 cars quite nicely on those big corners like the U bend after the first split.

BTW, also if GT2 balancing is the main concern then maybe make everybody who signs up drive a GT2 car and the admins or whoever allocate a car to everyone so theres a nice spread of the differnt cars.

Yes Bawbag, thats right, many GT2 drove very less downforce, but many GT2 with low downforce are faster around the corners then many GT1 Driver with huge downforce.

And That is the Problem, the fast GT1 drivers where not the problem. They got at 90% of the overtaking moments respect and didnt use the crowbar and make the corner for both cars slower, the fast GT1 drivers simply use their better acceleration, and that was the best choice for both.

Quote from KeiichiRX7 :

next weekend I'm going to hold a balance session for teh current spec GT2 and next weekend i'll play with a higher horsepower spec (If i can find hosts for those weekends).

CoRe would be happy to host one of these, though we're a US-based server.

Quote from Memph1s :

Yes Bawbag, thats right, many GT2 drove very less downforce, but many GT2 with low downforce are faster around the corners then many GT1 Driver with huge downforce.

And That is the Problem, the fast GT1 drivers where not the problem. They got at 90% of the overtaking moments respect and didnt use the crowbar and make the corner for both cars slower, the fast GT1 drivers simply use their better acceleration, and that was the best choice for both.

I was using 5/6 downforce and getting absolutely slaughtered on the straights. But yeah, I was eating up the other GT2s and some of the GT1s in the sweeper and other slow corners. I actually got held up over a second in sector 1 on one lap, following a GT1 car through. I don't see this as a problem, just mentioning it. I would prefer it if the GT2 cars had to use downforce in order to be quick, but in the end if it's the same for all drivers in the class it's fine by me either way.

I don't find the speed different disturbing. That will not change much with stronger engines. The main thing with stronger GT2's is to get a little better exit out of the corners. I don't see that as a big issue though.
I guess the main argument for stronger engines is that the GT2's get more and more dull the more restriction you have.

It seem to be very hard to balance this class absolute fair. We should do as suggested, try some values and test a couple of times untill we all agree. Or as Bawbag suggested, the faster team the slower car you drive ...

Ahh! Just re read what I typed, I was talking about the next balancing test so that all cars are given the best chance to be made equal.

Yes I understood and it more of a joke from me ...

But the thing is that my Swedish sim-coleuges use to do that to balance classes ...

I made the stats.