i think its worth it.
i think its worth it.
Pretty funny too that other games you pay for are essentially unfinished too.... it is just that the publisher tops it all off to make it feel finished. EA games for example are rushed to their release date even before time can be spent on them to be completely finished, bug free, etc. This shows in their software, it's obvious. So to say that you should have your money back just because it is an unfinished game is a really poor excuse you're finding in my opinion. Surely LFS doesn't have all the bells and whistles you think it should have at this point, but what other game is essentially 'finished' and any different from LFS? Other games have problems like LFS, and they need patches to fix it, and I'd be mad at that too... so don't single out LFS like it is the only piece of shit in the entire universe... and to even think everything bogus revolves around LFS. :rolleyes:
Honestly I think the payment for LFS is a great deal. The farther and farther the developers get with S2, the more content we get free of charge. And the updates for LFS are not just simple patches, Scawen & Co. do add on more content and features. Other games only focus their patches on bug fixes and other small things that don't even make the game feel any different than what you had before.
It's not a ripoff, or a waste of time. I find it rather convenient to get new stuff for LFS every so often, without paying. And if the announcement of S3 comes a long, wow, another 20 bucks and I'll get more content for even longer. It's not so bad.
Honestly I think the payment for LFS is a great deal. The farther and farther the developers get with S2, the more content we get free of charge. And the updates for LFS are not just simple patches, Scawen & Co. do add on more content and features. Other games only focus their patches on bug fixes and other small things that don't even make the game feel any different than what you had before.
It's not a ripoff, or a waste of time. I find it rather convenient to get new stuff for LFS every so often, without paying. And if the announcement of S3 comes a long, wow, another 20 bucks and I'll get more content for even longer. It's not so bad.
Had you mentioned that in your first reply I would have read your comments differently
I guess we can all be a bit clearer at times... anyway I just happened to quote Boostfire as he was the last one to post a message in that vain of thought in this current thread, I wasn't meaning to pick his out specifically and I was mainly wanting to comment on the first paragraph (which was following on from someone else's reply about progress reports) in his reply not so much the last (which was about more frequent patches) 
I should have been clearer 
I will be next time 
And as for interpreting Scawen wrong, that is possible, but I think it wouldn't be too far off the mark... I base that not just on one quote but all the comments he has made and the comments of others over the last several months. I've personally been on both sides myself, worked for several different companies as an employee, and have run several different businesses where I'm my own boss.
The beauty of working for yourself is that you can arrange work around your life, not life around your work (it has far more flexibility than being an employee) it doesn't mean self employed people don't work as hard (generally they work harder because they reap the direct rewards) it's just they can choose when to work... and what I was meaning is that with regular progress reports, the developers would inadvertently be making their intentions for the coming weeks work public which then creates heightened expectation which would then lead to a loss of flexibility in being able to arrange work around their lives... thereby loosing one of the primary advantages of being self employed
I just wonder why doesn't people complain that they don't receive chassis, seat, seatbelts, driving suit and helmet with LFS although they have paid for simulator. 
(Or do they come with S3? 
)
It actually doesn't matter if the "physics" of the game are flawed when comparing to real life, when the talk is about the game. It's the game we play, so from that point of view the bugs are actually features and they have to be learned in order to be competitive. If the features seem dull, well then maybe should consider playing something else. Besides it's easy to blame "bugs" or "flaws" if one just doesn't have the patience to learn the game. "Stupid game 'cause the rules are too complex for me."
I'm definitely not saying that the "features" shouldn't be "fixed" or that LFS shouldn't be developed to be "better". But when a patch that changes e.g. physics comes, things has to be relearned to be competitive again (or at least, such as in my case, to be able to drive without utter frustration). That's the name of the game. Adopt, adapt and improve. Complaining won't help.
It's perfectly acceptable (from game's point of view) to use features, such as high-nosed thingees or locked diff's (ofcourse smaller community can set "gentlemen's rules" that forbid those). When those things change with further patches, I'm quite sure that many people will complain that their knowledge of the game physics has to be relearned. Tough.
Those who complain just don't have the skills for the game or just are too short-sighted to know better. The secret (or so it seems to be) is that instead of complaining, making suggestions - that hasn't been already made for dozens of times - might bring more positive response.
(Or do they come with S3? )It actually doesn't matter if the "physics" of the game are flawed when comparing to real life, when the talk is about the game. It's the game we play, so from that point of view the bugs are actually features and they have to be learned in order to be competitive. If the features seem dull, well then maybe should consider playing something else. Besides it's easy to blame "bugs" or "flaws" if one just doesn't have the patience to learn the game. "Stupid game 'cause the rules are too complex for me."
I'm definitely not saying that the "features" shouldn't be "fixed" or that LFS shouldn't be developed to be "better". But when a patch that changes e.g. physics comes, things has to be relearned to be competitive again (or at least, such as in my case, to be able to drive without utter frustration). That's the name of the game. Adopt, adapt and improve. Complaining won't help.
It's perfectly acceptable (from game's point of view) to use features, such as high-nosed thingees or locked diff's (ofcourse smaller community can set "gentlemen's rules" that forbid those). When those things change with further patches, I'm quite sure that many people will complain that their knowledge of the game physics has to be relearned. Tough.
Those who complain just don't have the skills for the game or just are too short-sighted to know better. The secret (or so it seems to be) is that instead of complaining, making suggestions - that hasn't been already made for dozens of times - might bring more positive response.
Can someone ban this guy? I get warnings when I am as rude and childish as this fellow, and this guy gets nothing?
I guess being called idiotic and stupid by someone who thinks ~200 racers, most of whom obviously in private servers (which might as well be filtered out), is acceptably close to the claimed 550+ racers.
illepall Way to go with you Mathematics.
Why would the devs put an unfinished game not even nearing completion on sale without stating BOLDLY and EXPLICITLY that the product being paid for has no timetable for release and could be years until completion. Sure they can pull this off and don't owe anything, but don't tell me to go recommend this game to other people in the automotive community that constantly ask for a good racing sim/game.
Maybe because the devs had a good history of fixing problems and getting their product out on time. I have all the right in the world to Complain when single player isn't fixed, multiplayer is so sparse its once a week you can get into a server with enough people to race, and in the 6 months since the alpha release and 1 year since the promised full release of S2, maybe I figured I'd get more than a language pack for a game that maybe has 1 or 2 people really in need of Japanese characters (etc).
Don't tell me what seems backwards. People complaining and trying to drown out requests for updates on a product that has been purchased and is required by the rules of good business to be completed and if not so in the supposed "soon" timeframe as established by the previous quotes and timetables of the developers, is poor business.
Luckily Scawen is 95% respectful and handles himself well on here. As for those of you flooding this thread telling people how they are wrong to want a completed product 6-12 months after promised is absolutely insane, and furthermore indicative of your character. This thread wasn't to you fanboys that would go beyond Scawen's own words and be rude to people who have PURCHASED this product. If you aren't a dev or someone that has valuable input, then kindly Have a coke and shut the heck up.
illepallpointing out someones 'stupid' thinking on one subject is a bit different to calling them stupid.
the number of racers online at any given moment is not the responsibility of the devs...
the number of racers online at any given moment is not the responsibility of the devs...
LOL, so if saying what I think and reason through greater logic than his is stupid, isn't calling someone stupid, then what is? Lets not get into symantecs, we know what he meant and the possible interpretations. Either way I red flagged the post.
And yeah, when you're advertising that 500 people are playing on your website that includes payment options, and there are barely 200 including 75% of them in private servers, it is 100% false advertising. Its like saying "this game is in high use in the middle of the day" when it really is almost impossible to get a race going online.
I am sure its a glitch in their little program that updates the webpage with players online from LFSworld, but its false advertising no matter what the problem.
just checked the racers DB: there are exactly 500 registered japanese LFS Racers. :chairs:
And since the langauge pack there hasn't been 500 actual racers online each time I checked. I have this weird feeling that if they used an ENGLISH WEBSITE to purchase the product, knowing the game was primarily in ENGLISH, then maybe they got along fine before the language pack... But I guess we have unplayable single player, and sparse multiplayer, but at least japanese players can read the text when waiting hours for a multiplayer game and have their opponents in SP run out of fuel. Communication just doesn't seem as important as the actual gameplay problems.
@ Dethread
Did anyone forced you to buy the game!!!!!??illepall
What is a finished game for you??!
Please, give me a definition of a finished game.
Are u so naive that you would rather buy GTR for example, that is "finished" and not get a single patch, update, gift from the developers for free?!
What if it wasn't called "alpha" but instead just "S2".. Would you be happy?
Did anyone forced you to buy the game!!!!!??
illepall What is a finished game for you??!
Please, give me a definition of a finished game.
Are u so naive that you would rather buy GTR for example, that is "finished" and not get a single patch, update, gift from the developers for free?!
What if it wasn't called "alpha" but instead just "S2".. Would you be happy?
the language pack was done to increase the number of ppl that may be interrested in lfs. not anybody does speak english, or wants an english ingame interface. u can see this as an extra service which gives lfs an (small) extra advantage to other sims, that only come in 2 or 3 languages.
but i dont think that anything anybody will reply to you here will make you think different, or make you stop repeating yourself again and again. so i will sopt now. maybe this thread should be closed.
but i dont think that anything anybody will reply to you here will make you think different, or make you stop repeating yourself again and again. so i will sopt now. maybe this thread should be closed.
OK atm LFS website says ~300 people online. This is a fact, it may be 5 mins out of date, but it's still a fact.
There are 85 people online in S2, therefore the rest are using the demo (or S1). I don't see how this is a lie - if you have an S2 license you can join a race with any of them.
And of the 85 online in S2, 77 are in public servers, so that's only 9.5% in private servers, just a little shy of 75%.
I will admit it's not great to see that there are over twice as many demo racers online, but you can always see them as potential S2 licensees.
Actually I know for a fact that LFS is also sold via a japanese website by Japanese enthusiests, so it is very likely that quite a few of those 500 registered japanese users don't speak english
Well, Blowtus is right, neither do you know me nor do I know you personally, and I didn't call YOU stupid. I generally don't judge people by their internet posts, atleast not if they're about opinions. What I did do was to call your argument 'stupid' and the discussion you heated up again after everything has already been said in this thread 'idiotic'.
1) No, it's not a glitch
2) Also, it's no false advertising because guess what, when it says 500 players are playing LFS S2 the 500 players are playing S2. At this time. It makes absolutely NO statement what liscense these 500 players have or if some of them are playing on private servers.
Well we agree on something. And of course, you're just brimming with tolerance, civility and respect for others yourself.
Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, meet pot.
let's call this thread Dethred's Big Complaining Topic
Ok, I see what I get when I ask you tools to stop replying so this thread isn't whited out with nonsense.illepall
Current Version: S2Q
Racers Online: 351
Now to someone visiting the site not knowing the specifics it says that there are 351 S2 players online, and when they buy the current version they would be able to access 351 online players using the current version.
And to all the others asking if I was forced to buy the game or whatever? JUST SHUT UP. Your attempts at making a point are terrible. You're wasting bandwidth with your whitewashing.
Of course no one forced me to buy the game. I bought the game thinking there would be available play. Forgive me if I assumed the alpha meant there were just some things to touch up, not AI that can't race more than a few laps, and Multiplayer that said 900 players online on the release date but less than half of those were for the version I paid for, even though it said S2 0.5P or whatever.
And to everyone that wasn't an admin or someone with LOGICAL consideration consistent in their posts I ignored your last post and will continue ignoring them.
Out of all the posts in this thread how many of them are actual productive posts avoiding void arguments such as "Did any one force you to buy the game". Jesus Christ its difficult to avoid lashing out at such rhetoric. The argument isn't that I was forced to buy the game.
Argument:
-Game promised release in Dec. 04'.
-Game released in June 05' under the pretense that it is playable, yet isn't to any reasonable extent.
-Game falsely advertises the amount of players under the current version, which is false advertising.
-The game is barely online capable at this point. There were 40 people in public servers last night at 7-8pm EST. If you think that isn't a faltering popularity then WHAT IS? As far as I could guess NFS:PU probably has more players in multiplayer on a Tuesday evening than LFS.
-We aren't bashing the efforts of Scawen, or the other 2 devs, we are showing our concern. We paid 40 USD to play S2, and 6 months later you can't play SP for longer than a few minutes, and Multiplayer is dying at a rapid velocity.
If you disagree, write it in your diary, because we don't care. This isn't a feedback-from-the-community thread, this is a thread showing concern and colloberation for advise among the few who aren't fanboys to the point of ignorance. Please, if you are trying to say any of my points are void, you'll be wasting your keystrokes, unless of course you're a dev or someone with constructive input that can say more than "No one made you buy It". Those who do reply anyways really are hurting the dev's income, as I am seriously considering never buying S3, and not getting my friend's to buy S3 as they have for S2 and S1.
illepallCurrent Version: S2Q
Racers Online: 351
Now to someone visiting the site not knowing the specifics it says that there are 351 S2 players online, and when they buy the current version they would be able to access 351 online players using the current version.
And to all the others asking if I was forced to buy the game or whatever? JUST SHUT UP. Your attempts at making a point are terrible. You're wasting bandwidth with your whitewashing.
Of course no one forced me to buy the game. I bought the game thinking there would be available play. Forgive me if I assumed the alpha meant there were just some things to touch up, not AI that can't race more than a few laps, and Multiplayer that said 900 players online on the release date but less than half of those were for the version I paid for, even though it said S2 0.5P or whatever.
And to everyone that wasn't an admin or someone with LOGICAL consideration consistent in their posts I ignored your last post and will continue ignoring them.
Out of all the posts in this thread how many of them are actual productive posts avoiding void arguments such as "Did any one force you to buy the game". Jesus Christ its difficult to avoid lashing out at such rhetoric. The argument isn't that I was forced to buy the game.
Argument:
-Game promised release in Dec. 04'.
-Game released in June 05' under the pretense that it is playable, yet isn't to any reasonable extent.
-Game falsely advertises the amount of players under the current version, which is false advertising.
-The game is barely online capable at this point. There were 40 people in public servers last night at 7-8pm EST. If you think that isn't a faltering popularity then WHAT IS? As far as I could guess NFS:PU probably has more players in multiplayer on a Tuesday evening than LFS.
-We aren't bashing the efforts of Scawen, or the other 2 devs, we are showing our concern. We paid 40 USD to play S2, and 6 months later you can't play SP for longer than a few minutes, and Multiplayer is dying at a rapid velocity.
If you disagree, write it in your diary, because we don't care. This isn't a feedback-from-the-community thread, this is a thread showing concern and colloberation for advise among the few who aren't fanboys to the point of ignorance. Please, if you are trying to say any of my points are void, you'll be wasting your keystrokes, unless of course you're a dev or someone with constructive input that can say more than "No one made you buy It". Those who do reply anyways really are hurting the dev's income, as I am seriously considering never buying S3, and not getting my friend's to buy S3 as they have for S2 and S1.
I'm sorry, is this relevent? No? Maybe a little frustration from entering a thread meant to address the devs, not people that have nothing to do with the progress of the game. All you and most people in this thread have done is just bash the thread starter and then myself. Calling people for their lapse in logic and mathematics is not insulting, its addressing a fact. Read my previous post please so I don't have to deal with this whitewash junk anymore.
PS: Changing the argument is a sign of never having one yourself.
NICE...
Dethred, you're barking up the wrong tree, preaching to the converted, etc...
We're part of the solution, not part of the problem. LFS devs are one of those developers who don't hype up the product, don't give release dates, never advertise falsely, always help anyone who has a problem, resolve all issues as soon as possible and listen to the community.
It's just sillly bashing us, we've never, not even on a single occasion, said when S2 will be finished. We've just said it will take as long as necessary. We've released S2 in an Alpha version which is very successful online and good to race in, entertaining hundreds of people every day. We're working on the issues that were known before and since the Alpha release. There's nothing more we could do, no way we could be better, except by producing software at extremely high speed which is not possible. By the way, we don't sell software, we only sell licenses to use our software. We then release software when it's ready or an improvement on previous versions.
Why not turn your enthusiasm at some of those developers who overhype things, give unreachable release dates, release final versions which are full of bugs and are impossible to contact for technical support?
We're part of the solution, not part of the problem. LFS devs are one of those developers who don't hype up the product, don't give release dates, never advertise falsely, always help anyone who has a problem, resolve all issues as soon as possible and listen to the community.
It's just sillly bashing us, we've never, not even on a single occasion, said when S2 will be finished. We've just said it will take as long as necessary. We've released S2 in an Alpha version which is very successful online and good to race in, entertaining hundreds of people every day. We're working on the issues that were known before and since the Alpha release. There's nothing more we could do, no way we could be better, except by producing software at extremely high speed which is not possible. By the way, we don't sell software, we only sell licenses to use our software. We then release software when it's ready or an improvement on previous versions.
Why not turn your enthusiasm at some of those developers who overhype things, give unreachable release dates, release final versions which are full of bugs and are impossible to contact for technical support?
Come on man... every thime i check during the day in europe, there is always aproximately 250 players. Most often is above 300.. So, i don't know do you have something filtered or something, but it is only late night when there is about 50 players..
Call me a fan boy if you like but I've had LFS awhile now and have entered into several threads about lack of people on at the times I'm on... but I could never say I don't get my fair share of great races online and I have more than got my money's worth out of this game and am positive I will continue to do so...
I haven't been trying to convert the people on here, as they don't understand the argument after several lengthy posts.
I am not bashing anyone, and least of all yourself. Frustration is hardly bashing, its just 110% impossible to prove a point on this forum because there are dozens of people that just whitewash and try to divert the argument, hence the guy who tried to switch my quotes around up there.
What you are doing is Posting a false number of people playing S2. And there are only about 50 public racers in S2 right now, which is significantly down from a few months ago. The only person that can realize that any progress or fixes that make the game more playable (such as actually coding in pit stops for AI) would greatly help the game is yourself. The Physics problems, as you've addressed earlier, need to be fixed all at once, but you can't be dragging this on so long. I am not telling you what you need to do so much as if you keep staying the course, as a terrible politician is habitually saying and doing, then this game will cease to gain a crowd to play it.
All of those people that think the game is simply limited to purists, and thus there is no problem with 50 racers on public servers at any time isn't bad, are neglecting the potential of the game. The game has great potential but even recent reviews are starting to make the same points I'm making (one posted on the forum here a few weeks ago).
I let my NFS fanboy friend play LFS for the first time over last weekend when I went to a college graduation and brought my PC. He loved the game, and admittedly said he hates every other sim he's tried, and wondered about buying it but I warned him of the exact problems I have encountered:
Borderline misleading tactics (certainly not intended, but misleading none-the-less), misleading webpage stats, low Multiplayer participation, impossible Singleplayer races over 10 laps, etc. I recommended he not buy the game yet. Unfortunately for me, I didn't have someone to give me that advice. There is no indicator on the webpage showing just how incomplete the version is, and there is an indicator that it is more popular online than it actually is. For these reasons I was misled, and saying I wasn't is purely contradictory to the facts. Furthermore, the original intended release of December 04 and subsequent 6 month wait led many of us (Fanboys DON'T BOTHER REPLYING), to believe that the game would be largely playable in both SP and MP formats.
I also don't see any reason to not contract out some help to speed things along, people have created blur effects and hi-res texture packs since the release, maybe you can ask them to help out without splitting the profit.
With no intended insult or negativity, the undeniable (unless you're dillussional) point is that the game is losing its popularity and its been 1 year since it was promised to at least go alpha. At the very least you could let others submit their ideas, such as high res texture packs, and if it up to your quality incorporate it into the game to avoid wasting your own time on it.
Also, the point that you never promised a release date is false, as it was promised, and later disavowed in fall of last year. Even if, at the time of S2 Alpha's release you said there is no certain release date, I feel it would have been responsible of you to have said it would probably be up to or beyond a half to a full year before you can utilize single player and you fixed the physics.
I commend you for your support on the forums and your work in the game... But I bought Battlefield 2 knowing it would be buggy and knowing there would be little or no tech support, but it is playable and for all intensive purposes complete, I can play it for hours without problems and all the elements are there. If the elements of play weren't there and they released it saying its not complete, then that would have been fine if they had announced that its being released but unplayable. I can't recommend this game to my fellow employees/mechanics as a good racing game because not only is it incomplete, but on the website there is no indicator of how incomplete it is.
Good tech support is one thing but releasing an incomplete game without making darn sure what is missing and could cause problems is irresponsible.
This thread is closed
This is not just a suggestion
(305 posts, closed, started )
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