Nice video, Niels! Love teh car, and I have confirmed before that it feels very much like a sporty car on track, on street tires and all...

Quote from JTbo :

There is some newer F3 cars (rF3) that have odd suspension, if you can supply some data is it not too big task to make suspension with car factory, I think you should download it anyway so you see what data is needed for it.

One problem has been light cars and tire behaviour with them, Niels did spend really lot of time trying to get GP79 cars to behave but I think it was not possible?

Tires is certainly most difficult part with that, other parts (excluding aero, I think) are not much of work nowdays, I would believe.

Not sure if I have time to workout and provide the numbers for rFactor - I'd need to do a lot of reading to understand how to achieve even the most basic mod, let alone mod a mod and keep it working... Maybe one day, when I've got whole evenings free one after another, not the odd hour here and there per month.

Quote from ajp71 :

Don't try to start taking tracks you drive in real life in sims too seriously, even the most accurate tracks will have big differences, what's important is that one gets the atmosphere and a unique element added to the experience, there's no way I'm going to race the old Spa, but when I'm blasting the Eagle round in GPL I know it's the closest I'm ever going to get, probably doesn't bare much resemblance to the real thing, but I don't care if each bump is perfectly modeled, I'm there driving a car I'm very unlikely to ever be able to drive on a track I'll never be able to drive against
a field of legendary drivers that I'll never be able to do IRL.

Now if you want to practice Brands then rF can show you the way round if you don't know the track or help you stay fresh driving a single seater (just like LFS does). The only real use for real club circuits in rF apart from being fun to drive is I can let people who know real tracks out on a track they know straight away.

Brands wasn't accurate. Basic corner shapes/gradients very wrong, kerbs all the wrong shape/size/style.
Brands didn't have any of the atmosphere

I can't see the point of wanting a track that isn't anything like the real thing. If I want to pretend I'm driving a Ferrari 360 on the Nordshleife, then it would help massively if the track was accurate and the car was accurate. Neither are achieved in any sim.

I wanted to use Brands to get an idea of how 'good' different lines are on lap time. But Druids, for example, is only accurate in so much as it's a right hander. Pants.

At least the car (the 'vette) was good.

I think the new Nordschliefe for rFactor is the best version I've seen to date for a PC simulation...

So it may have a few kinks slightly off, but it is really damn close to what I've seen in videos. The video Niels has linked up there should be a good enough example of the track itself... but I do agree that the laptimes simulations get versus reallife, that can never be a fair comparison. As for the track itself, again, I think it is one of the best out there at the moment, and it most definitely keeps my time away from LFS-boredom. Finally rFactor gives me something else to do when it comes to choosing a driving simulation for the night.

But to create a precise virtul model of any track is quite impossible without any "hard data" which just is not available for any mod team. It just isn't possible to get anything more than a good guess or very close looking track when there is no money to spend on to get that accuracy down to centimeters instead of (tens of) meters. After all, google maps and local maps plus some incar videos do not tell much. And then you have the 5 drivers arguing whether there is a bump on the main straight or not...

Imho, with the current tools it is a bit too much asked to get a good virtual version of something that is usually about 4km long, 4 meters wide and has elevation differences of 15 metres. Looking at some Nordschliefe onboard videos I can instantly tell few spots of the track where the rf version is wrong but who cares really? It is not laser scanned with miniscule foton radars to model every small stone next to the track.

When something is free it, of course not, doesn't mean that it should be welcomed like the coming of the belzebub or a wr from kev. But as it is free it usually isn't that good

(Niels, make the corvette to lift-oversteer )

Quote from DeKo :

imo, the race caterhams in rfactor are better than those. imo, those just feel dead and they arent at all fun to drive. the race caterham really is.

The next release of MajorParts/Cubits Caterhams is just around the corner, in which they have all had the carFactory treatment (not just the Caterbusa and Powertec as in the current release). I start a championship in the new R500 on Saturday and I can honestly say I've never looked forward to a championship so much

The Race converted Caterhams are surprisingly good though, must admit. My biggest issue with them is the lack of PneumaticTrail in the tyres. This means hardly any tyre feedback with RealFeel. Try adding PneumaticTrail=12e-6 to each compound in the .tbc and they get even better

Tristan: To get the best out of RealFeel try increasing SteeringDamper to 11500 (i.e. remove damping) and SmoothingLevel to 0 (i.e. remove smoothing) if you haven't already.

Quote from Hyperactive :

But to create a precise virtul model of any track is quite impossible without any "hard data" which just is not available for any mod team.

Which is why I don't think a serious sim should include real tracks. If we had real cars that we as inaccurate as the tracks, the forum would be awash with "LFS is crap, my car doesn't handle like that". Why should we lower our perfectionist standard because it's a track. Fantasy tracks and cars, as it were, get round this problem - they are what they are, handle how they handle, as long as the underlying physics are good.

Quote from TechAde :

Tristan: To get the best out of RealFeel try increasing SteeringDamper to 11500 (i.e. remove damping) and SmoothingLevel to 0 (i.e. remove smoothing) if you haven't already.

I think I did that. So many changes in ini and ply files I can't remember the specific values, but I think I did. And I'm not critisising your plugin at all - it's turned rFactor from a steaming pile of unrealistic crap into a bit of a rubbish simulator. Niels' car also helped in this. Perhaps, with more carfactory/realfeel updates, mods etc rFactor might become a competitor to LFS.

I'll try that Nurburgring later - which one is it exactly?

Is there anyway of editing the graphics, to reduce the saturation, and try and get it looking even vaguely realistic? Perhaps some ini/ply editing? Or will I have to edit my graphics card settings?

Thanks for the pointer to Uzzi's new Road Atlanta earlier in the thread guys. A few minor issues aside, which will hopefully be fixed in the final release, it's excellent.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Not sure if I have time to workout and provide the numbers for rFactor - I'd need to do a lot of reading to understand how to achieve even the most basic mod, let alone mod a mod and keep it working... Maybe one day, when I've got whole evenings free one after another, not the odd hour here and there per month.

I have odd week here and there, also some data would help one of my other projects great bit, so I can make mod if you can look some parameters, I can give you what is needed and to some how to get it, but someone have to work out tires.

Here is some idea what is needed, also weight distribution and weight, fuel tank location and amount of fuel it gets, then there is lot of other bits, like aero that is going to be quite bit of guesswork.




But if you think you would have little time for this every now and then, I could send you what I know how to get values which you are perhaps bit unsure about?

I'll download car factory, and try to work out what I can get easily, and what I can get with a bit of thinking. Are there some that are quite confusing or backwards? I'll make a list and see what I can get.

Edit: Started making a list already - for stuff like CoG height (which I'll guesstimate anyway) is it from the ground or the underside of the car (I'd guess the ground, and I'd guess the answer will become obvious once I've gone through all the tabs).

Quote from tristancliffe :

Is there anyway of editing the graphics, to reduce the saturation, and try and get it looking even vaguely realistic? Perhaps some ini/ply editing? Or will I have to edit my graphics card settings?

Tristan, try this:

The colour of the ambient and directional light for each track in rFactor is specified in it's GDB file, located in GameData\Locations\<TRACKNAME>\<POSSIBLE SUB-FOLDER>. Open the track's GDB file in a text editor and replace the lines which begin with Sunrise, Day, Sunset and Night with the following:

SunriseAmbientRGB = (76,51,51)
SunriseDirectionalRGB = (229,204,178)
SunriseFogRGB = (68,118,155)
SunriseFogIn = 0.0
SunriseFogOut = 1950.0
SunriseFogDensity = 0.5

DayAmbientRGB = (98,94,82)
DayDirectionalRGB = (232,229,206)
DayFogRGB = (210,220,200)
DayFogIn = 100.0
DayFogOut = 2500.0
DayFogDensity = 0.2

SunsetAmbientRGB = (76,51,51)
SunsetDirectionalRGB = (178,178,127)
SunsetFogRGB = (60,68,85)
SunsetFogIn = 100.0
SunsetFogOut = 1800.0
SunsetFogDensity = 0.5

NightAmbientRGB = (5,6,12)
NightDirectionalRGB = (10,12,20)
NightFogRGB = (4,7,19)
NightFogIn = 120.0
NightFogOut = 1200.0
NightFogDensity = 0.5

Make a backup of the GDB before making the changes so you can revert back to the old settings if wanted.

I find these settings are much more natural looking than the defaults for most tracks. However, you may need to tweak the RGB colour values to suit your own preferences.

Unfortunately, this approach requires you to make the same edits to each track and variant and the changes will also cause mismatches if you try to use the modified tracks online.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Is there anyway of editing the graphics, to reduce the saturation, and try and get it looking even vaguely realistic? Perhaps some ini/ply editing? Or will I have to edit my graphics card settings?

You can try playing around with the following values in the track .gdb:

SunriseAmbientRGB = (76,51,51)
SunriseDirectionalRGB = (229,204,178)
SunriseFogRGB = (68,118,155)
SunriseFogIn = 0.0
SunriseFogOut = 1950.0
SunriseFogDensity = 0.5

DayAmbientRGB = (98,94,77)
DayDirectionalRGB = (242,229,216)
DayFogRGB = (255,255,255)
DayFogIn = 100.0
DayFogOut = 2500.0
DayFogDensity = 0.2

SunsetAmbientRGB = (76,51,51)
SunsetDirectionalRGB = (178,178,127)
SunsetFogRGB = (60,68,85)
SunsetFogIn = 100.0
SunsetFogOut = 1800.0
SunsetFogDensity = 0.5

NightAmbientRGB = (5,6,12)
NightDirectionalRGB = (10,12,20)
NightFogRGB = (4,7,19)
NightFogIn = 120.0
NightFogOut = 1200.0
NightFogDensity = 0.5

And the following values in the track .scn:

AmbientColor=(100, 109, 136)

FogMode=LINEAR FogIn=(2000.00) FogOut=(10000.00) FogDensity=(0.20) FogColor=(190, 198, 213)

(These are from VirtuaLM's Le Mans '79, possibly the best looking track available for rFactor with regards lighting & colour saturation)

Quote from tristancliffe :

I'll download car factory, and try to work out what I can get easily, and what I can get with a bit of thinking. Are there some that are quite confusing or backwards? I'll make a list and see what I can get.

Edit: Started making a list already - for stuff like CoG height (which I'll guesstimate anyway) is it from the ground or the underside of the car (I'd guess the ground, and I'd guess the answer will become obvious once I've gone through all the tabs).

It is from ground and good bit is that normal values from car industry should work out.

Anti dive and roll camber rates are ones that need bit more of figuring out, others are kind of easy to get, at least if one has any specs from factory that is, maybe emailing Reynard wouldn't be too bad option :P

Springs and dampers I'm sure we can work out as long as linear ones are used.

Ride and roll tab together with those front and rear suspension tabs is biggest work probably.

Reynard went bust years ago

I doubt it'll have any appreciable anti-dive/squat - it's not useful in a racing car (if Caroll Smith/Allan Staniforth are to be believed)

Springs will be simple - I've spent a fair bit of time recently looking at them. Dampers might be harder, but I can at least read what Bilstein rated them as.

Yeah, got to do some roll center calcs, roll bar motion ratios, contact patch ratios, roll camber rate (front and rear), bump and droop travel (can guess, I don't think it'll matter, as we never hit either), KPI, scrub radius (will need a scale drawing doing methinks), ackermann %... Plenty to do at the moment, and it's not the sort of thing I'll have time to do this week - racing at Brands on Saturday, and the car isn't ready yet - the rear wing is still in bits after some modifications.

does anybody know if i can get the Mercedes-Benz 190E evo3? if not can that be the next car niel?

can someone please give me 5 reaseons I should try rFactor.

Quote from Zachary Zoomy :

can someone please give me 5 reaseons I should try rFactor.

If you can't make them by yourself, perhaps you should not try? Perhaps it is just not right product for you

Quote from Zachary Zoomy :

can someone please give me 5 reaseons I should try rFactor.

Niels's corvette c06
Skoda oktvia
Renault clio cup
Nordschleife(for me its useless track tho)
Nice era,its fun with the add-ons
And its not better than lfs

Quote from e2mustang :

does anybody know if i can get the Mercedes-Benz 190E evo3? if not can that be the next car niel?

there aint no such thing as a evo3

Quote from Zachary Zoomy :

can someone please give me 5 reaseons I should try rFactor.

i could give you at least 10 why you shouldnt

Quote from Zachary Zoomy :

can someone please give me 5 reaseons I should try rFactor.

Reason 1: You can run it in either DX7, DX8 or DX9 mode to suit your graphic card performance. Framerate is quite good.

Reason 2: It has some of the best netcode, although it can be better, but racing against 40++ other persons on a server havent i experienced in any other simracing game.

Reason 3: A large modding community and a great site for legal mods:
www.rfactorcentral.com
+ a site for both legal and "illegal" mods:
www.racesimtracker.com

The mods (cars, tracks, plugins etc) are of various quality so be selective.

Reason 4: More support for organised online racing are popping up with live streaming etc. http://www.prosimracing.com/ is one example of that.

Reason 5: rFactors development tools -> http://www.rfactor.net/index.php?page=devcorner

rFactor is a very customisable game and it has both its advantages and disadvantages. But after trying some quality mods lately and some nice plugins the game has been transformed into a new game which actually feels realistic and looks realistic.

Please tell me which plugins to make it look and feel realistic (other than one car, the 'Vette, and the real-feel plugin).

1. Looks horrid in each though
2. Might be good netcode, but only ever 2.3 people online at any given moment
3. Large modding community, but only 3 or 4 that have a clue what they're doing
4. Leagues getting better (I'll take your word for it - I wouldn't want to have to use rFactors physics in a competitive (i.e. for points) race situation.
5. Isn't this, the dev corner, the same point as number 3?

I promised myself I wouldn't get into any of these rFactor v LFS discussions but just for Tristan I'll make an exception

Quote from tristancliffe :

Please tell me which plugins to make it look and feel realistic (other than one car, the 'Vette, and the real-feel plugin).

Look: Le Mans '79 & Nordschleife v2.0

Feel: The Powertec and Caterbusa from the current Caterham release by Major Parts & Cubits. Better off waiting til the release of the next version though in which they've all had the carFactory treatment. JTbo's Volvo is also very good. Things can only get better, as they say.

Quote from tristancliffe :

1. Looks horrid in each though

Subjective, I think it looks better than LFS. Being able to race through dawn, dusk and night-time with working headlights is another big plus for me.

Quote from tristancliffe :

2. Might be good netcode, but only ever 2.3 people online at any given moment

Untrue. Right now there are 180 people online and this is about the quietest time. Probably not as many as many as LFS but quite a few more than 2.3.

Quote from tristancliffe :

3. Large modding community, but only 3 or 4 that have a clue what they're doing

Nah, at least 5 or 6

Quote from tristancliffe :

4. Leagues getting better (I'll take your word for it - I wouldn't want to have to use rFactors physics in a competitive (i.e. for points) race situation.

Subjective again, I would and do and thoroughly enjoy it with the right cars and respectful racers. The physics issue is a mod issue not a core physics engine issue.

Quote from tristancliffe :

5. Isn't this, the dev corner, the same point as number 3?

Possibly

Quote from tristancliffe :

Please tell me which plugins to make it look and feel realistic (other than one car, the 'Vette, and the real-feel plugin).

1. Looks horrid in each though
2. Might be good netcode, but only ever 2.3 people online at any given moment
3. Large modding community, but only 3 or 4 that have a clue what they're doing
4. Leagues getting better (I'll take your word for it - I wouldn't want to have to use rFactors physics in a competitive (i.e. for points) race situation.
5. Isn't this, the dev corner, the same point as number 3?

Point 5: I mean like "You can make mods and plugins for the game without so much hassle if you are skilled enough"

Quote from frankwer :

Point 5: I mean like "You can make mods and plugins for the game without so much hassle if you are skilled enough"

Well if you want to create something even semi realistic, then it is going to bee quite lot of hassle no matter how skilled you are, simply because amount of data you need to collect is massive, but that we can't escape when trying to make content for any sim. Of course you can make up things and cover that with pretty graphics, however we just need to peek at hall of fame and see what that will result (and not results in good way).

Quote from JTbo :

however we just need to peek at hall of fame and see what that will result

Ah, so it wasn't only my suspicion that alot of the HOF stuff got in there due to eye-candy alone. Commendable, for the modelers, but not for the rest of the moding team.

That Hall of fame system is seriously ****ed up anyway when a mod can get HOF within 1 day.