There have been sevral incidents recently regarding public skins and editing. I've only known one or two skinners who will be up in arms with anyone who has simply changed the number they are running with, I personally think this is acceptable, some leagues require you to run a certain number anyway. To stop such incidents happening I'd suggest the following guide lines for all new skins. What do you think to these.

In an empty space on the skin the following should be marked in a clear font in BLOCK CAPITALS, easilly readable in 512 x 512 LFSW resolution:

Whether the skin is PUBLIC/PRIVATE (simply whether anyone can race with it)

LFSNAME (for contact with regards to editing, using an LFS name is better than e-mail/web as it won't change)

If you do not want to allow people to change your number or using the skin as an outline for a new skin write NO EDIT

If you do no want to use your cars outline in a new skin but will still allow people to change the umber for personal use write NO OUTLINE

Otherwise your giving permission for anyone to change the number or use it as a base outline to make a completely new car. You may not pubblish the car with a changed number anywhere, only upload it to LFSW and must leave the original credit. If you create a skin using another skins outline you must give the orginal author a credit eg. OUTLINE - LFSNAME

Porting a skin to another sim will not always be taken well so these skin guidelines only apply for LFS use.

A private skin should never be edited (including changing the number) or used without permission of the original author.

Note - These guidelines would only apply to cars marked in this way, not those already created and atm. this is only a suggestion to see what others think, none of these guidelines are currently supported by anybody.

I'm not too sure about this one, copyright isn't particularly enforcable on the internet, we all know that, thus I'd say it's inevitable that the work of the better/more popular skinners is going to be stolen or copied. That said I do NOT think that makes such behaviour anywhere close to acceptable never mind about correct.
There's a difference between being inspired by something and blatantly copying it or worse editing it and re-submitting it, unfortunately my personal opinion is that whilst what you propose is sound in principle, anything can be edited out of a .jpg, and whilst I don't want to spend hours working with photoshop to create something only to see it abused by others,and would never even think of doing that to someone else's work, there will always be those who do not see such "theft" as a wrong doing.
It's a real shame to have to say if you don't want to acknowledge the possibility of your work being ripped then don't make it public, but I do think that's the bottom line.

I don't quite see what your saying, by an outline all that means is simply taking a few lines of a base skins, the actual original .jpg file is in no part used in the finished skin, these recommendations would only apply to skins where the author has not told people not to edit them, I cna see a few people who would object to there skin being used as an outline but I see no sense at all in objecting to someone changing a number, they're not claiming credit for the skin, haven't posted it anywhere, it simply avoids having a grid full of cars with the same number, I've only ever known one person make a fuss about this.

Sorry, let me clarify things a little. I quite agree that changing names and numbers on skins is not really a big deal, after all race numbers/driver names/windscreeen decals etc is often just about the only thing that makes one car distinguishable from another.

Whilst I accept that there's no such thing as a truly original idea, and that arguably most skinners are breaking copyright law by reproducing decals/logos/real racing paint schemes etc, as far as I'm concerned changing racing numbers etc is as far as it goes, no copying of outlines or graphics etc, no editing somebody else's work and calling it your own. A skin created by somebody else is their own property, and it should stay that way.

With regard to idea you propose, in principle it's fine, in practice, I feel it likely that there will be those whose "moral" stance means they abide by it, and there will be those who will do the opposite and break it.

Thing is, people will still steal graphics etc. from skins, even with this

Good suggestion ajp71, it would make the permitted level of usage of the skins instantly recognisable!

And of ppl stealing.. yes, but then we know when something has been stolen, and who by. If something really cool has been blatantly stolen, I just might express my grief over the matter and boycott the thief

In the end of the day many real race cars are inspired by the vague shape of another car, and in LFS it is easy to reproduce this for those who do not wish to race plain cars yet do not have the time/skill/inspiration to create truely original cars. This probably happens more than you might think, some of the best skin makers do this and it hasn't usually flamed up into anything in the past.

It isn't right to use anyone else's artwork in any form to make your own "version" or whatever. There are no excuses. Someone could spend 3 hours doing linework and another person comes along and snatch's it for their 3-minute skin.

"Hey man, nice skin!"
"Thanks mate".
"You've really done well".
"Thanks very much, I like it too".

alternative:

"Hey man, nice skin!"
"Oh I just painted over part of another skin and threw some decals on it, some other guy did all the fancy work."
"Oh I see. Does he like how you have used his work?"
"Who cares?"

Now try this.
"Hey mate I love what you have done on that rear wing, may I use it on one of my skins? I'll give you full credit for your hard work."


To avoid conflict, and yes even breach of legal copyright, the third conversation is the only one that is correct. Most people will flare up if you take their work without asking. Most people are willing to be generous if approached properly. And that is a fact.

Well even if the whole part of using a cars outlines is scraped there really needs to be a clear cut way of looking at a skin file and working out if it's public or not. Someone also really needs to draw up some clear guidelines as to what as acceptable in terms of changing the number on a skin and there needs to be a system of knowing you are/are not allowed to change it on each skin without asking.

Quote from ajp71 :

Well even if the whole part of using a cars outlines is scraped there really needs to be a clear cut way of looking at a skin file and working out if it's public or not. Someone also really needs to draw up some clear guidelines as to what as acceptable in terms of changing the number on a skin and there needs to be a system of knowing you are/are not allowed to change it on each skin without asking.

Yes, I also think it is wise to state clearly on the skin what is acceptable to the author. I also agree that the ability to change at least the number on a public skin is a good way to go.

A small textbox on the skin could be:

The author does not give permission for all or part of this artwork to be used in anyway without consent. You are free to change the racing number to something you favour but please do not reproduce or alter any other part of this image. This skin is intended for public racing use in Live For Speed.

A skin you make for a team might have the following text amended to the previous statement:
This is an offical skin created for team xxxxx. Please place the file in your data/skins_x folder only. Not for public use. Thank you.

Or a Personal skin:
This is my personal skin. Please place the file in your data/skins_x folder only. Not for public use. Thank you.

The only skin I've released so far clearly has "this is a public skin" written on it. The race number is a part of the colour scheme on that skin, and might not be totally straightforward to change, not that I'd object if somebody did, as long as they didn't make a complete hash of it

The other skin I have uploaded is my personal FXO skin which has "this is a private skin do not use it" written on it. Seems fair enough to me, that's why I label stuff that way

Quote from Gunn :

The author does not give permission for all or part of this artwork to be used in anyway without consent. You are free to change the racing number to something you favour but please do not reproduce or alter any other part of this image. This skin is intended for public racing use in Live For Speed.

When thats at 512 x 512 it cannot be read

A simple system of a few words that can be put on all skins and clearly visible at 512 x 512 would help with these problems, also deciding whether it is acceptable to change the number on a public skin which does not specifically say you are allowed to, I only know of one skin creator whose had ago at someone for doing this. If we had a guide as to what can be done on any public skin that does not have a specific note as to what you can't do then that would save later confusion and fighting

The only solution is a skin upload log which will display all uploaded skins from the last week or so on lfsworld, and any skinner who wants to have a "copyright blaahblah" on his skins, can take a look on this. The other good thing is that most team skins are well known, so also other racers can notice a stolen team skin and write this into the chatterbox or whatever.

Those skins in the list will need to be resized a lot (128x128 max), and get very ugly quality (~5kb each), if it's possible at all. I dont know hoch much traffic it will be, and how much the server can handle, guess you must ask vic there

Now if you want to compare 2 skins, you can lay them over each other and switch around quickly - and you will see it quite easily, even if there are two skins with only few differences.

Quote from ajp71 :

If we had a guide as to what can be done on any public skin that does not have a specific note as to what you can't do then that would save later confusion and fighting

What would save more confusion and fighting would be if people didn't alter anything at all unless the author said so. Simple.

How about a rating system like they use in movies - for example an A skin might be fully editable; a B skin you can add or change sponsors logos and the number; and so on in decreasing amounts of editability until you reach say a D or E skin which may not be edited at all. The meaning of the 'ratings' would be posted here for everyone to see along with the usual warnings about copyright, etc. A single letter on the skin would have the advantage of being legible at all resolutions - if a large enough font was used...

The problem is imo that some people will not care about what they are allowed to do or not.

Well, the second solution would be changing the file format from the skins and add encryption to the private skins, but this will result in far lower accessibility as you will need special tools to convert the skins, etc.
It's just nice and easy with jpgs now.

Inspire more people to learn how-to make their own skins, and you probably won't have as many people being so lazy and unimaginative by ripping other people's work

Encryption and all that other copyright stuff is just never going to be a successful filter for rippers, and at times would make things way too restrictive for a not-so-common occurance/problem. (Like you said ORION, .jpg is perfect; easy to use. I'd hate to see it be some special file)

If we did at least have some sort of common method to let people know if the skin is private, a team skin, not to be edited, etc... it might as well be on the skinfile like most skinners have always done. Even though it can be easily bypassed, there is not much else you (or any typical person) can do to defer someone from ripping... and copyrights are never active or real -- if someone took action by law, it'd be pretty mundane to fight over a ripped skin. It's all done by civil agreements, hopefully ending peacefully.

Oh and props to the people that ASK before they attempt to take someone's work. :up:

Another idea:
When you upload the skin in lfsworld, you can set it's state (public, semi-public, private, whatever), and it will be displayed in LFS when you leave the pits with a skin which is copyrighted. (like: ORION is using a priavte skin without permission)... could also be a warning message in the garage after you have selected the skin (not in the top left corner though, people must also see it, so an "alert" is needed with button "sorry didnt know it's copyrighted" to be clicked...)

thought a bit further:
Maybe the skin uploader can even setup the user names when uploading at lfsworld of those who are allowed to use it, and if the racer's name is not in the list, he will not be able to join the race or select it in the pits.

Some guidelines as to what is genrally acceptable will not stop anyone who wishes to disobey them, regardless of whether you tell people they can or can't change a number they are still physically able to open the .jpg and change it, just most people don't want to disrespect those who've worked on the skins. Most authors of public skins take it as a complement when someone uses their skin and won't mind them changing the number, that doesn't mean claiming it as yours anymore than driving a skin without a changed number.

Quote from ORION :

Another idea:
When you upload the skin in lfsworld, you can set it's state (public, semi-public, private, whatever), and it will be displayed in LFS when you leave the pits with a skin which is copyrighted. (like: ORION is using a priavte skin without permission)... could also be a warning message in the garage after you have selected the skin (not in the top left corner though, people must also see it, so an "alert" is needed with button "sorry didnt know it's copyrighted" to be clicked...)

thought a bit further:
Maybe the skin uploader can even setup the user names when uploading at lfsworld of those who are allowed to use it, and if the racer's name is not in the list, he will not be able to join the race or select it in the pits.

Thing is: 1. .jpg doesn't store any metas, so it will be very hard to get such a system to work, and 2. people will just take the skins from their skins_x-folder, just as they did until now...

Some people may accidentally use a private skin, either because they've put a private skin in their skins folder and it wasn't obviously a team skin or because they are new and don't understand about private skins, both these cases could be solved if a little pop up came up telling them that this was a private skin on LFSW. We'll never be able to completely stop deliberate skin theft, it doesn't seem to affect other sims so why is it such an issue in LFS? A mixture of a greater number of troublemakers and wreckers as well as a lot of people who are seemingly very oversensitive.

Quote from bbman :

Thing is: 1. .jpg doesn't store any metas, so it will be very hard to get such a system to work, and 2. people will just take the skins from their skins_x-folder, just as they did until now...

The system will use the filenames for detection.
If a user will rename the file, it's clear that you cant do anything, but at least you can prevent someone from using the original file.