So, I'm curious for a discussion on fly-by-wire technology that is inevitably going to be utilized in the automobile industry eventually. Here in the US, we already can barely purchase a car with a manual transmission, but that is more from the market than technology. But with European manufacturers such as Audi and Porsche, etc, going with this triptronic stuff and other stuff like traction control, stability control and anti-lock brake garbage, I've been wondering what you guys thought of the fly-by-wire stuff that I'm sure will be in cars sometime in the near future.

The reason I've been thinking it is, at work, all our new forktrucks we get in are now all fly-by-wire. The hydrollic lift controls, steering, throttle and brake, they are all electronic now. It's horrible. They are extremely unresponsive and just a nightmare to drive and work with around the plant. Eventually, I believe this is what our cars will be like, probably not long into the future.

The arguement for fly-by-wire can be described with how the most advanced and most maneuverable fighter aircraft of today is all fly-by-wire. That's fine and dandy on a multi-million dollar piece of military machinery. But the problem with automotive is, the manufacturers are all about cutting cost and making more money, so obviously, FBW won't be anything close to that. Instead, I see the automotive industry being more like the current forktrucks that I have experience with where the throttle response is almost non-existant, there is no more feel to anything because it will all be electronicly connected rather than mechanically connected. FBW controls in a car compared to what we have now will be like comparing an automatic transmission with no mechanical connection to a manual with the solid mechanical connection of the clutch.

All the talk on these forums about realism in sim racing currently will be flipped around as instead of sim racing being technologically advanced closer to driving a real car, driving a real car will advance closer to driving in a computer sim because they will have to simulate the feedback in the steering wheel with fly-by-wire.

What are your thoughts? I am not looking forward to the future of the pleasure we automotive enthusiasts enjoy when the cars become unresponsive turds. It's already difficult to purchase a new car in the United States since you have to buy an expensive and expensive to insure sports car to drive a proper transmission.

Here's another thing. How many times have you seen a catastrophic failure in any of the mechanical control systems, be it the throttle, brake system, steering box, etc? And how many times have you seen a short in the wiring or a fuse blown that disables your air conditioning or HVAC fan since you started driving? That simple electrical short or blown fuse of the A/C system can easily be a short in the fly-by-wire steering system while driving down the highway at 65 mph. Not a very safe proposition there.

Well, my car has an electronic throttle, and I like the feel and response more than the old style cable operated throttle in my old car. I've driven cars with electronic braking too, and I haven't found it to be all that terrible, not quite the same feeling as normal brakes, but I honestly don't think most people could tell the difference.

I can see more fly/drive by wire tech coming to cars.

With already have ABS, traction and various forms of stability control all which modify inputs to keep the car within certain "states" of grip etc.

I hated the traction control on my BMW Mini. Only had it fitted because it cost £100 to add from new and filled the last hole on the dash with a blanking plate Trouble was the default was to reset on each time you started the car

In the end my 1970 Mini was more fun. The BM was faster and sharper but you are directly connected to the car with the old Mini. Far more fun.

For me the modern cars with electronics lose something. Even power steering adds distance between the driver and the tyres.

It is hard to get a Manual here in NZ. We get lots of Jap imports all of which are Autos. You see loads of WRX autos, pointless.

TBH, I can see a time where all new cars have GPS and know where they are, hence limit speed to current limits etc. Aaaaarrrgh nightmare

Long as the cars have manual I don't care to be honest.

Quote from Woz :

... but you are directly connected to the car with the old Mini.

The feeling for the mixture of the concrete - something you don´t have in modern cars - is what I like most in vintage cars.


If you ever had a automatic transmission - you don´t want to switch back.

You always have to keep in mind that "fly-by-wire" was introduced into aviation because of planes with too unstable flight characteristics to be held aloft manually.

Thus I don't hope that drive by wire will be replacing good old mechanical driving. It just alienates you that much that if anything goes wrong, it goes wrong completely...

Quote from Crazy Harry :

If you ever had a automatic transmission - you don´t want to switch back.

I really hope you mean if you've had an automatic, you don't want another one..

My old car had an auto, and I told myself I'd never again get another one, the only cars I looked at to replace it had manuals, and I bought a car with a manual.

What do you mean, eventually?

My car (from 2002) has a drive-by-wire throttle, and I don't think it's unresponsive. I wouldn't have known if I hadn't read up on it to see if fitting cruise control was possible.

Would DBW steering be much better (cost, MTTF, how well it fails safe)than the typical rack/pinion arrangement? Seems too risky and too complicated an option to me.

Fly-by-wire throttle was added to the Yamaha YZF-R6 in 2006. I would imagine it's a better implementation than you might find on most cars, though, considering the application.

This is why I brought this discussion up. It's interesting first, that folks are stating their cars already have fly-by-wire throttle application. Then, I don't have the same vehicles and same technologies in automotive that you guys do. You all are constantly talking about cars I had never heard of before....

Then again, I also have no idea what class of car you are talking when you state it has FBW throttle and it has better response. I look at cars in the Ford, Chevy, VW, Toyota, and Mazda sense because any others would be rich folk luxury cars (BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Lexus...) I would expect BMW or Porsche to implement a better system than something from the lesser common class.

My only experience with FBW would be industrial trucks such as forktrucks as I said already. You hit the throttle in those and it takes half a second for it to respond that you end up giving more throttle, then it snaps you back at a greater acceleration than you anticipated from the poor response.

Then again, I guess throttle application has already been half fly-by-wire anyways with the mechanical connection only being via cable to the throttle body. All else is electronic. But brakes and steering on the other hand, that is my most concern. Without a mechanical connection, all true feeling will be completely lost.

I am just imagining with the cost cutting/saving of the automotive industry, that the systems just wouldn't be that well implemented. I work for an automotive supplier and know how money grubby the auto industry really is. They care about money and that's it. Quality is number 2. Quality is always sacrificed over quantity in the auto industry.

Even the BWM Mini is electronic throttle. This is used so the Traction control can limit power when it thinks you have applied more than the tyres can take.

The traction control on the Mini, and I believe other cars in the BWM range, makes use of the ABS sensors in the wheels along with other sensors to determine the car state. It then uses individual wheel braking and throttle limiting to keep the car stable.

When its enabled the car does not feel as "sharp" and "twitchy" when you throw it about and is harder to get out of shape.

For me, it feels like a lot of modern cars limit the speed the throttle can release when you come off the gas. Quickly come off the gas in a car with a cable between your foot and the carbs and you will feel instant engine braking. Do that in a modern car and all you get is a gradual slow down. I am sure it is done so that joe public have a smooth drive to the shops but means its far harder to balance the car because you are forced into using the brakes as well.

Quote from mrodgers :

This is why I brought this discussion up. It's interesting first, that folks are stating their cars already have fly-by-wire throttle application. Then, I don't have the same vehicles and same technologies in automotive that you guys do. You all are constantly talking about cars I had never heard of before....

I have a VW GTI, I hope you've heard of those before. :P

There's actually a lot of cars that have drive by wire throttle, my dad's new car does too. His actually has electronic brakes too, and those don't seem too bad, it takes a couple times to get used to them, but then it's pretty natural.

Drive by wire steering would be really weird, but I'm guessing there's regulations in place so that won't happen, at least for a long time.

Quote from Woz :

For me, it feels like a lot of modern cars limit the speed the throttle can release when you come off the gas. Quickly come off the gas in a car with a cable between your foot and the carbs and you will feel instant engine braking. Do that in a modern car and all you get is a gradual slow down. I am sure it is done so that joe public have a smooth drive to the shops but means its far harder to balance the car because you are forced into using the brakes as well.

I've driven some cars that seem like that, but not all of them. From what I've read, it's actually a fuel saving measure, I'm not really sure why though.

A recent car, either a Mazda or an Acura, just had it's throttle behavior "patched" by the manufacturer to change that behavior. I read about that in one of the car magazines and found it amusing that they can do stuff like that now.

Quote from mrodgers :

You all are constantly talking about cars I had never heard of before....

Huh? I don't think anyone has mentioned any car that you might be unfamiliar with in this thread. And I'm pretty sure you're familiar with bikes like the one I mentioned.

Well steering and brakes are already heavilly power assisted that takes the direct feel out of driving, even if there is still a physical connection which the assistance is acting on. Fly by wire may not be too bad, it will have no feel, but neither does any power assisted car, Chris Harris wrote an intresting column on the subject a couple of weeks ago for the Autocar readers here

Quote from Forbin :

Huh? I don't think anyone has mentioned any car that you might be unfamiliar with in this thread. And I'm pretty sure you're familiar with bikes like the one I mentioned.

Actually, only one car was mentioned before I said that, Woz and his BMW Mini . And I'm talking cars normally talked about in general on this forum. Vauhalxles, Corsamobiles, Opelikas, Holdenas and the like. (Yes, I made them up derived from their real names because I haven't a clue what the heck they all are.) Then they talk about all these Ford models like the Fiesta which hasn't been in production since the 80's, or the Fusion, which isn't anything close to the Fusion over here, which is their Mondeo. Then the Ka, what the heck is that thing? Death on wheels?

It's all so very confusing talking about cars with these folks

Wait a minute? I search General Motors - UK in google and get the site for Vauxhall? This is a GM car? You guys don't seriously like anything manufactured by GM, do you?

It's a very different world over here. Chevrolet over here is what was once Daewoo, Vauxhall is our main GM brand (Opel for the rest of Europe) and the Ford Fiesta has been in production for a very long time.

Quote from Forbin :

Fly-by-wire throttle was added to the Yamaha YZF-R6 in 2006. I would imagine it's a better implementation than you might find on most cars, though, considering the application.

I want fly by wire steering on my bike!