Webber crashing out was the big shame of it though. It would've been a top result for him.
Here's an amateur video of the Vettel incident that is still online. 
IMO Hamilton's fault. There was no need to go THAT slow.
IMO Hamilton's fault. There was no need to go THAT slow.
You could see that Webber was getting frustrated with the way Hamilton was driving behind the safety car, but you can't blame Hamilton for Vettel not looking where he's going. Obviously Webber's not going to pass Hamilton under the safety car so where did he think Webber's car had gone? Magically disappeared?
in an interview said he saw Hamilton slowing.... and there you go... he was looking at Hamilton and not Webber
Hamilton said himself that Webber was too close to him, and he radio'ed in telling his team to tell RedBull that Webber should back off him or there will be an accident!
Hamilton said himself that Webber was too close to him, and he radio'ed in telling his team to tell RedBull that Webber should back off him or there will be an accident!
Yeah, you can see it's clearly Hamiltons fault, he obviously used a Jedi mind trick on Vettel, making him think of puppies or something, maybe that he was still at home in bed thus distracting him from the job in hand.....................and from that camera you can clearly see Webber getting frustared..through the back of the car...and his helmet.....his car movements clearly denoted frustration and a little despair at the state of the worlds economics as well I think.
Can't it be as simple as Vettel messed up or it's just one of those things?
EDIT: I don't want to offend or start arguments but it's just as bad reading all the blaming as it is reading all the ass kissing.
Can't it be as simple as Vettel messed up or it's just one of those things?
EDIT: I don't want to offend or start arguments but it's just as bad reading all the blaming as it is reading all the ass kissing.
i agree. no hamilton didn't "make" vettel run into webber, but he certainly did create a situation where something like that might happen. what other reason could he have for repeatedly slowing to a near stop (he did it under all of the safety car periods, not just during this one), other than to cause havoc behind him?
It wasn't fair?... Weird mate.
got to disagree guys, at the point that hamilton slowed he was up to the back of the safety car was he not - if he went any quicker he would have gone into the back of the safety car or passed him and gor a D/T or worse - where was here supposed to go i ask you ? 
oh give me break. he comes charging up to the back of the safety car, going much faster than it, everyone naturally follows him, then he slams on the brakes and let's it pull away by 25m or more. he knew exactly what he was doing. the safety car didn't slam on the brakes or cause that situation.
I'm defending the point were people have slated Hamilton for going to slow....... but he could not go anywhere else could he now
and btw no one said anything about it being the saftey cars fault either? take a chill pill my friend
and btw no one said anything about it being the saftey cars fault either? take a chill pill my friend
I agree with DRU on this one.
Hamilton was letting the SC go ahead so he had a bit of a safety margin to warm his tyres and brakes (in those conditions would'nt you ?) It's common practice and has been since the SC was introduced. Many of the drivers were reporting back to the pits they could'nt see the car infront during both SC periods so you would have thought they'd leave as big a gap as possible, (that rule of 4/5 car lengths between the cars is fine when it's dry, but really does'nt work in those conditions.)
Unfortunately it was just a "racing" incident, sad for Vettel and Webber, i would have loved to have seen them both on the podium, but these things happen. I personally think the punishment of a 10 place drop at the next GP was a bit harsh to be honest.
Hamilton was letting the SC go ahead so he had a bit of a safety margin to warm his tyres and brakes (in those conditions would'nt you ?) It's common practice and has been since the SC was introduced. Many of the drivers were reporting back to the pits they could'nt see the car infront during both SC periods so you would have thought they'd leave as big a gap as possible, (that rule of 4/5 car lengths between the cars is fine when it's dry, but really does'nt work in those conditions.)
Unfortunately it was just a "racing" incident, sad for Vettel and Webber, i would have loved to have seen them both on the podium, but these things happen. I personally think the punishment of a 10 place drop at the next GP was a bit harsh to be honest.
yes, he could have. he could have followed the safety car at a reasonable pace, like he was supposed to, and if he'd been doing that then he wouldn't have needed to slow down at all.
but i forgot, hamilton is perfect. he makes perfect starts, perfect stops, has perfect strategy, and is a great guy who everyone should look up to. foregive me for calling a spade a spade, but he's just as dirty as MS, if not more so.
um no-one is saying he's perfect - only you are
driving behind the saftey car, leading a race is a very hard thing to do, even in the rain, you need a mixture of fast and slow to get cold air in the tires, keep the temp up.
What Hamilton was doing is the same as any leader of a race has done behind the safety car (sinse it's inception back in 94)
the only reason there was a problem was that webber reacted to hamilton and vettel didn't.
its the same as monza 2000 when Button went off doing the same thing behind the safety car whilst in the pack.
Vettel made the rookie mistake Hamilton didn't he was doing what every leader behind the pace car does.
forinstance if you follow the pace car at 80kph all the lap your engine will overheat, you have to yo-yo it to maintain the cold air - even in the wet.
Why were drivers (other than Alonso and Webber) apparently upset by Hamiltons driving behnd the safety car then?
And since when do F1 cars overheat at 50mph, with the engines turned down? Care to post a source for that info?
nope can't do i'm afraid Tristian
, if i'm wrong i'm wrong
, i just go on information passed on from the F1 commentry.They have stated that every time there is a period of prolonged behind the safety that they don't like it as the engines require cold ait passing thorugh the raditors to keep it cool and also they need to go a certain speed to maintain tyre pressures.
I think it was Canada a few years ago that i can vaguely say 'i heard it their' but can't confirm that
sorry They were talking about Bert Maylander (poor spelling) that even if he went as quickly as he could it was still not enough that the F1 cars would drop tyre pressures and suffer overheating and engine damage...
however that may have been a few years back vefore the 'one engine rule' and before cars like the mclaren could switch a bank off (in effect makiing it tick over)
Are engines more bullet proof to do with these improvements that they can run effectively stationary nowadays?
Tyre pressures/brake temperatures would still need to be maintained by the same way right? ie yo-yo-ing to get heat into them? there is no rules saying you can not do that right ?
engine cooling is much better these days, probably thanks to the electronics. don't you remember hamilton sitting motionless at the end of the pit lane for extremely long periods during quali earlier in the season, or when he went off at nurburgring and waited for the crane to put him back on track?
if the cars can withstand sitting motionless at 30 degrees, i'm sure they can stand driving at 80 km/h in the rain.
if the cars can withstand sitting motionless at 30 degrees, i'm sure they can stand driving at 80 km/h in the rain.
The thing is Hamilton is there because he is Hamilton, he wouldn't have been in that situation if he was some lap dog to everyone... You don't get into F1 by being Mr Nice....
this is just the way it is. Senna was a nut, Schumi was a nut, Alonso IS a nut.... and Hamilton is just as aggressive.... I know some of you feel this inferiority complex and try to discredit these guys to boost you own ego, but face it... they are there because they are better than us, and because they aren't pussy's like us who like to play it ultra safe!
this is just the way it is. Senna was a nut, Schumi was a nut, Alonso IS a nut.... and Hamilton is just as aggressive.... I know some of you feel this inferiority complex and try to discredit these guys to boost you own ego, but face it... they are there because they are better than us, and because they aren't pussy's like us who like to play it ultra safe!
I dont know if dirty is the word but he is every bit as aggressive and cunning as MS,the guy is driven (please no pun intended)no doubt but i think all the really good ones are.
Its been a national week of mourning in Australia,where there name Vettel has the same sort of punch as the "c" word..
Seriously LH drove a great race but behaved incredibly stupid behind the pace car,to drive that way in those conditions shows little regard for any poor bastard behind him.
Very poor form!
This is by no means a genuine source but i found these regualtions concerning the safety car...(mostly to keep tristan happy )
http://www.flag-marshal.org.uk/FIA_flag_regulations.htm
not a for or against just the rules if they are genuine.
Once behind the safety car, the race leader (or leader of that sector) must keep within 5 car lengths of it (except as under j) below) and all remaining cars must keep the formation as tight as possible.(too tight for vettel eh :razz
i) While the safety car is in operation, competing cars enter the pit lane, but may only rejoin the track when the green light at the end of the pit lane is on. It will be on at all times except when the safety car and the line of cars following it are about to pass or Under certain circumstances the clerk of the course may ask the safety car to use the pit lane. In these cases, and provided its orange lights remain illuminated, all cars must follow it into the pit lane without overtaking. Any car entering the pit lane under these circumstances may stop at its designated garage area.
j) When the clerk of the course calls in the safety car, it must extinguish its orange lights; this will be the signal to the drivers
that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap. At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the
pace and, if necessary, fall more than five car lengths behind it. As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards at the observer’s posts will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed for no more than one lap.
you could argue that hamilton was doing everything within the rules to keep a competative edge.. some may say dangerous, but at the end of the day you should drive to the car in front, not the next car in front to the right.
)http://www.flag-marshal.org.uk/FIA_flag_regulations.htm
not a for or against just the rules
if they are genuine.Once behind the safety car, the race leader (or leader of that sector) must keep within 5 car lengths of it (except as under j) below) and all remaining cars must keep the formation as tight as possible.(too tight for vettel eh :razz
i) While the safety car is in operation, competing cars enter the pit lane, but may only rejoin the track when the green light at the end of the pit lane is on. It will be on at all times except when the safety car and the line of cars following it are about to pass or Under certain circumstances the clerk of the course may ask the safety car to use the pit lane. In these cases, and provided its orange lights remain illuminated, all cars must follow it into the pit lane without overtaking. Any car entering the pit lane under these circumstances may stop at its designated garage area.
j) When the clerk of the course calls in the safety car, it must extinguish its orange lights; this will be the signal to the drivers
that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap. At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the
pace and, if necessary, fall more than five car lengths behind it. As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards at the observer’s posts will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed for no more than one lap.
you could argue that hamilton was doing everything within the rules to keep a competative edge.. some may say dangerous, but at the end of the day you should drive to the car in front, not the next car in front to the right.
Next subject: Kubica-Hamilton crash...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zThY3U2i8SA @ 00:50
Maybe not the best replay view but I'd say Hamilton wasn't completely innocent in that situation. It takes always two to crash. The drive-through penalty was complete bullshit. There seems to be unwritten "you can't touch our precious Brit driver" rule.
.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zThY3U2i8SA @ 00:50
Maybe not the best replay view but I'd say Hamilton wasn't completely innocent in that situation. It takes always two to crash. The drive-through penalty was complete bullshit. There seems to be unwritten "you can't touch our precious Brit driver" rule.
.
My Polish ain't what it used to be, but i'm guessing he said it wasn't his fault.
The vid's not the greatest angle, but if you look closely, Hamilton was following what appears to be a dry-ish line. Kubica took a much narrower line (probably the correct line for a dry track ?) and just tagged the rear wheel of Hamilton. Judging by the onboard footage later in the vid, visibility was really really bad and with the tiny little mirrors on these cars, i doubt Hamilton would have known where Kubica was until it was too late.
As far as the drive through penalty is concerned, if that had happened at the first race of the season, then i doubt very much Kubica would have been penalised. But, because Hamilton was leading the championship and Alonso had crashed the FIA felt it was a correct penalty, if only to put a bit of distance between Kubica and Lewis. This isn't a new thing for the FIA/Bernie to do when protecting the championship outcome. On many occasions in the climax of a season drivers have been told not to interfere with particular driver battles. eg. Mansell was told in very plain English to hold back at T1 when Senna and Prost were fighting for the championship at Suzuka. The last thing the FIA want is for a back marker or midfield charlie to take revenge or otherwise and mess with the championship result.
However, In my opinion it was more of a race incident than anyone's bad or aggressive driving.
The vid's not the greatest angle, but if you look closely, Hamilton was following what appears to be a dry-ish line. Kubica took a much narrower line (probably the correct line for a dry track ?) and just tagged the rear wheel of Hamilton. Judging by the onboard footage later in the vid, visibility was really really bad and with the tiny little mirrors on these cars, i doubt Hamilton would have known where Kubica was until it was too late.
As far as the drive through penalty is concerned, if that had happened at the first race of the season, then i doubt very much Kubica would have been penalised. But, because Hamilton was leading the championship and Alonso had crashed the FIA felt it was a correct penalty, if only to put a bit of distance between Kubica and Lewis. This isn't a new thing for the FIA/Bernie to do when protecting the championship outcome. On many occasions in the climax of a season drivers have been told not to interfere with particular driver battles. eg. Mansell was told in very plain English to hold back at T1 when Senna and Prost were fighting for the championship at Suzuka. The last thing the FIA want is for a back marker or midfield charlie to take revenge or otherwise and mess with the championship result.
However, In my opinion it was more of a race incident than anyone's bad or aggressive driving.
I don't really think there is any favouritism in any FIA's decisions. Fia's decisions just are completely unlogical and random. I really hope the FIA gets something done with the driving aids issue, the cars don't even need analogue gas pedals anymore. Just but an on/off button and the computer does the rest.
That is what the Massa's and Kubicas "battle" was all about. Who has better adjusted the traction control to work on wet grass. It was not exciting or beautiful to watch, it was just two boys going on and off the track. It is what you see on demo servers when no one knows the track!
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The view may give a wrong impression of that corner but Hamilton was defenately taking a very wide line into thay corner leaving the door open. It is plain stupidity to do that when you have someone right on your tail waiting for your mistake, even if there is a loong straight afterwards. That being said the view may give wrong impression: it may as well be a late dive-in from Kubica as his line is lot tighter into the corner. It is also hard to tell where did Kubica hit Hamilton; if Kubica's front tire hit in Hamilton's car nearer the front tire - it is very likely that it was a racing accident and Hamilton should have seen it coming. If Hamilton was hit closer to the rear tyre it would suggest that Kubica "just" managed to get barely aside Hamilton at the apex. Hamilton therefore could not see kubica and it was more Kubica's fault. But we really need better view
how long hv u watched F1~?
when did doing that behind the safety car became dirty~?
this is what happens ALL THE TIME...
do some burn outs to heat up the rear tyres, and slam on the brakes to put some temperature into the brakes, all perfectly normal, just dangerous for the guys behind if they're following closely (but most wouldn't anyway)...
as said there've been a few crashes thanks to that (Button slam it into the walls but successfully avoided the rear of I can't remember who at Monza, and JPM managed to slam into the rear of MS inside the tunnel at Monaco under the safety car), and a LOT of near misses...
Hamilton is currently under investigation by FIA for his behaviour under SC regime, according to La Repubblica. Apparently FIA acquired the video on YouTube as new evidence against him for the Vettel/Webber accident.
Everything gets more and more ridiculous by the day. As I already said, I don't think FIA is biased towards any particular team but there are enough good reasons to believe their decisions are more interested in business than in sports.
Edit:Piece of news present also in the official F1 site.
Everything gets more and more ridiculous by the day. As I already said, I don't think FIA is biased towards any particular team but there are enough good reasons to believe their decisions are more interested in business than in sports.
Edit:Piece of news present also in the official F1 site.
Good, because his driving was very poor under the SC. Deserves a penalty really, especially in the interests of fairness.
**Spoilers** F1 2007: Japanese Grand Prix
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