Quote from Bob Smith :

So a question, if a mod came out that edited the attributes of the three demo cars (not allowing users to edit the attributes) to re-create three other cars, how would that likely be received?

I've only ever used LFStweak once, and that was a couple of years ago when trying to turn an MRT into a cart, so i'm not entirely sure of how much can be done with the latest version ?

Reading between the lines, you say "edit the attributes of the three cars to re-create other cars" hmmm, we talking, turning them into their GTR cousins ?, giving them slicks ?. and if LFStweak allows give them downforce too ? For demo users ?, Haven't the Devs been generous enough ?, and how much longer can i go on ending each statement with a question mark ?

Or are we talking, giving the demo cars attributes similar to 60's classics with disk brakes, live rear axles and suspension taken straight from a bouncy castle ?

Or are you just being a little tease again ?

I'm sure most if not all demo users would love to have GTR styli versions of the existing cars, don't think to many would like the 60's versions though. But would this just give them yet another opportunity not to buy the full license ?

All in all it depends on how you define "editing the cars attributes", and who would be allowed to use these re-created cars ?

Did any of that make sense ?

?

Any such mods still require licence checking, just Like LFSTweak and BeSpoke.

By re-creating cars, I meant real cars, not other cars in LFS (that would be a waste of effort really). By editing attributes, I mean pretty much all of them. Forget any pre-conceptions of the massively limited range LFSTweak had. Any such mods are of course limited to the restrictions of LFS itself (so sadly no live axles or torsion bar suspension systems).

Quote from Bob Smith :

Any such mods still require licence checking, just Like LFSTweak and BeSpoke.

By re-creating cars, I meant real cars, not other cars in LFS (that would be a waste of effort really). By editing attributes, I mean pretty much all of them. Forget any pre-conceptions of the massively limited range LFSTweak had. Any such mods are of course limited to the restrictions of LFS itself (so sadly no live axles or torsion bar suspension systems).

Quote from Bob Smith :

Mods including new track or car models are not allowed for now so there's not really much to discuss. What Scawen doesn't seem to mind is editing the attributes of the existing cars to, essentially, create new cars (ala LFS Tweak). Of course such programs need constant updating to work with current patches but that effort is know up front before work begins on a program.

So a question, if a mod came out that edited the attributes of the three demo cars (not allowing users to edit the attributes) to re-create three other cars, how would that likely be received? Assuming all testing was complete before release and thus there would never be any version mismatches.

Well, what's the rules for LFStweak then? Since there have threads before and will be threads in future, why not ask it as a moderator from the devs to get a official answer? What values can be altered and what not. Is it "legal" to modify other cars than the demo cars. How much modifying can be done, can suspensions edited, maybe 3rd party addons for engine damage that directly change stuff inside LFS instead of relying insim only? Would such mod get a go-ahead from the devs if there was license checking and online compatibility&cheating possibilities were researched and possible other issues taken care of?

I think it would be good to have a LFStweak that worked and got updated when new versions of LFS are released and there were more settings to tweak.

Quote from Bob Smith :

I meant real cars, not other cars in LFS (that would be a waste of effort really).

For license holders yeah, agreed

Quote from Bob Smith :

By editing attributes, I mean pretty much all of them.

And you think that's possible without stepping on Scawens toes, and infringing his copywrite ?

Quote from Bob Smith :

Forget any pre-conceptions of the massively limited range LFSTweak had.

Interesting, very interesting.....

Quote from Bob Smith :

Any such mods are of course limited to the restrictions of LFS itself (so sadly no live axles or torsion bar suspension systems).

Thats the only downside of the whole thing, shame, no classics, yet

Well, if it's possible, has Scawens blessing, and all mods were regulated then yeah, bring it on........(starts dreaming of a Mazzer GT)

To be honest I think you guys are completely missing the issue here...there seems to be many people who prefer fictional horses with horns than people who like modding in games.

Does anyone else laugh at the Race07 slogan...'REAL CARS, REAL RACING' They need to change that...'REAL CARS, REAL RACING BUT YOUR NOT IN CONTROL OF IT EVEN WHEN YOU TURN OFF THE BILLIONS OF ASSISTS'

1994 Mazda Miata with a Fast Forward Cold Side SC, for 190-RWHP.

I will forever be your friend.

Quote from Mazz4200 :

And you think that's possible without stepping on Scawens toes, and infringing his copywrite ?

...

This has nothing to do with "copywrites". It is just about that are those kind of programs allowed on this forum. Clearly they are to some extend but no one seems to know where the line is...

And actually it is really small issue. It won't change anything as it basically won't work online and is not supported by the devs.

Miatas, bah. Unicorns!

I was under the impression that what Mr. Smith was refering to was indeed not an offline mod. Maybe it was just my imagination.

Quote from Hyperactive :

This has nothing to do with "copywrites". It is just about that are those kind of programs allowed on this forum. Clearly they are to some extend but no one seems to know where the line is...

Then maybe "intellectual property rights" is a better description, its a bit of a black art that only strange little gray suited men in dimly lit office's seem to fully understand [edit] essentially it all hinges on the LFS terms and conditions, (which i'll admit i've never read), and how tightly the devs want to implement them in any given situation.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Unicorns!

Argh, not those again :rolleyes:

All in all, if this is something that's possible, then it does suggest some exciting developments in the future. Either that or Bob's just yanking our chains (would he be so mean ?)

Although I have just started playing, I still feel that new tracks should be able to be designed by anyone but can only be included as a download pack after going through some sort of approval frm the developers. This is cos after a while, the tracks are gonna be boring cos u have gone over them thousands of times. New tracks will add something new and also allow for new races where tracks are released just before the race.

However, I dont agree to modding. The problem with modding is a game like this is that our community is already quite small and modding will fragment the community.

Large distribution games benefit from modding cos sometimes the initial package is crap and the mods make the game much more playable. Also large distribution games can survive fragmentation cos the community is much bigger and people will just move to the better mod.

" I am bored of all the content in LFS. I know every corner and have raced every car I am interested in. I want a new challenge. Make of that what you will, but thats how I feel. " - Becky Rose


I finally have reached the point, where I must agree with
opinion like Becky's ... so +1

What are you up to Ben? I think it's not the first posts you make about this LFS tweak like thing in few months.

The devs do not get involved with modding applications for LFS, it is up to forums mods. So that almost gives me the freedom to do anything, so long as I can convince Sam, Al, etc. Body mesh editing is ruled out but anything else is up to our imagination really. Scawen has commented he doesn't mind the little memory editing apps, however some mods and other users don't like 'the crowd' that LFSTweak attracted (letting you create complete fictional or impossible cars) and it was difficult to use online with some good organisation (I used it for online races with one or two others back in S1 but never really publically).

So if a mod gave the user no control, servers are either modded or not, so it should be feasible to work online all the time, so long as there is sufficient interest from the community and a few dedicated modded servers running for people to join. The licenced cars must be encrypted as they're not sitting there in memory in plain sight begging to be played with. Getting interest in such a mod really just requires that three demo cars are altered into something interesting, a little different from what we have now, fun to drive, and most importantly, are made as accurately as can be given the limitations of LFS and the modding program.

That last part is the hardest, as when you need about a hundred numbers to model a vehicle, even the most detailed car spec websites only give you a starting point. Luckily in the case of the dp1, Dennis knows everything needed. For other vehicle it similarly requires talking to the vehicle manufacturer. So let's be honest, that probably rules out anything created by a large company. Thankfully there are plenty of smaller manufacturers about, it's just a bit of hunting to find the willing ones.

The other course you can take bob is to also look at the car lover groups out there. Many of them know their preferred car inside and out and can likely come up with any "Data" you need. One area I have always found to be lacking is a RWD and AWD car in the same class as the XFR/UFR. The speed and feel of that class is great but it could really use something other then a FWD.

In the end gathering the data for any vehicle may take some time but then again just like most of the cars in LFS there is no reason why it has to be modeled on a real car. Just designing one to be close or have a physics profile that is possible would also work just as well.

Having three cars to modify also means we can extend existing classes for a more varied field. Or release several different mod packs to allow different servers to run different "cars".

I think anything more then altering the suspension design, engine, transmission, tire, aero and weight would be weird though. It would be better to leave things like track and wheelbase the same as the source model.

Quote from Gimpster :

I think anything more then altering the suspension design, engine, transmission, tire, aero and weight would be weird though. It would be better to leave things like track and wheelbase the same as the source model.

I know you're not alone in this thinking, it is for this reason Fonnybone stripped the wheelbase and track adjustments from LFSTweakS2 Lite. Personally I think, given that the car body could be completely wrong, the wheelbase and track are important to the handling, and wheels & tyres may not fit in the arches anyway, it's better to go with more realistic handling over looks.

I can't help thinking that if the devs just let us know what exactly it was that they were developing, then a lot of this speculative suggestion making wouldn't occur.

Bottom line is many guys who play LFS are now bored with the exisiting content. If we knew what was upcoming then maybe we'd stop asking for new stuff...

Oh and yes I'd love for there to be more tracks (and cars).

Rob

Bob,

I remember the days of S1 where the track and suspension could be adjusted to move them outside the wheel wells or to poke through the body. It looked like crap. With the ocurrent physics having the tires mounted outside the body has other problems. The tires and suspension would now be more exposed to damage, drivers would have to be much more careful about contact and close racing/rubbing would become very dangerous.

It may be in the best interest from a handling point of view to allow the track and wheelbase to mismatch the model but I would rather see that not happen. It looks wrong, it will make close racing less of an option and I think much of the community would agree. There is much that can be done while still preserving the base models stock wheelbase and track width.

Well, I suppose it will be a case of seeing how it goes. If people don't like it, so be it. Everything's otherwise perfect in my happy world of forces view.

If it fails, well, I tried.

How soon can we expect to see something released Mr. Smith?
I'd be very curious to see what you have been working on.

rFactor is how I found LFS.. Simply said LFS is stable and never mis matches and the physics are vastly Superior.

It would be nice to have more tracks but that is all that I need LFS needs.

Quote from Borat :

If LFS is going to survive long term ...

Some of us have been playing since '02 (Feb 03 for though)... that's four years, that's pretty long term already.

Also, why mod a game that is technically still in development?

I love the way that LFS is developed. Its so nice to have everything bug free. If modding was allowed, it would have to be offline only for quality control reasons.

Quote :

Some of us have been playing since '02 (Feb 03 for though)... that's four years, that's pretty long term already.

I think he means after the game is finished. If people are still playing Stalker 4 years on from now, I'd say that's long term. I don't consider Stalker to be a 4 year old game now, as it only came out this year.

All this talk about unicorns and yet I have not seen single one in these threads, what a disappointment it has been

Quote from Electrik Kar :

I think he means after the game is finished. If people are still playing Stalker 4 years on from now, I'd say that's long term. I don't consider Stalker to be a 4 year old game now, as it only came out this year.

The Stalker situation is completely different to that of LFS. Stalker was not available to the public as a Beta until late February 2007. LFS has been available as a demo (and it only ever started as a demo) from it's very early days and the Alpha was released some two years ago. So of course Stalker isn't considered a long term game already, it's just had a long term development.

LFS S1 was an offically released product after the demo peroid. S2 demo was then released and S2 Alpha soon followed as development was delayed on the final version. S2 offical or final release version isn't even here yet... Stalker's official version is.

Going off topic: Having recently purchased and finished Stalker, I've never played a new release that felt so unfinished. Although Stalker has been offically released and has had 4 or so patches, it's still got plenty more bugs requiring attention and feels incomplete/rushed. Also the developers are now creating a second Stalker title so the development of the first has more than likely stopped.

Having said that and going further off topic, Stalker has the most intense atmosphere that I've ever experienced in any game. I highly enjoyed it and am about to play it again... maybe with mods.

In a nutshell... you can't compare the two on basis of long term as one was only released to the public this year and the other title has been public for most of its development life.