Quote from colcob :

Yeah, this is all true. But as for the Top Gear test, firstly I doubt that the GT4 time is all that close to reality anyway, I know it reckons its a simulator but its not that close.

Of course we all know that GT4 isn't a simulator but lap times could be very close to real life but that isn't the case either. The devs (and GT fan boys) say the real life lap times vs. GT4 times are within 2% (but that's just marketing bullshit). For instance Nordschleife track record is 6:25.91 by Porsche 956 '83 and GT4 4:44.650 (!!!) Toyota Minolta 88C-V Race Car. That isn't quite within 2%.

well, with my bike racing, i have actually thought about it, thanks to that top gear show, and i figured out that, at least part of it, is that i have total faith in my vehicle. the tyres will stick, i will get the lean angle, the brakes will work etc... im not thinking...what if the rear slides, what if the brakes lock, nothing like that

i think thats part of it, as well as pure confidence in your own ability.
alot of racers, car and bike, that ive met are confident in their own lifes, some to a cocky stage.

Quote from MAGGOT :

Its not just a matter of being exposed to racing, to be a GOOD race car driver you NEED natural talent. All drivers will tell you that. You can only learn/develop so much skill. You need to have it to start with.

Also, race car drivers don't loose their fear, its always with them. They just gain more confidence. There's an old quote, something along the lines of "If you're not afraid, you shouldn't be racing a car."

MAGGOT

Depends how 'good' you mean by good. There are plenty of good drivers and riders who get knocked back because they don't have the sponsorship dollars and connections. I disagree you need natural talent, time in the car and a functional brain can get over most hurdles, racing really isn't that physically demanding or anything, it's just a bunch of learned responses...

Quote from Blowtus :

racing really isn't that physically demanding or anything, it's just a bunch of learned responses...

That could not be further from the truth. Racing is incredibly demanding, both physically and mentally. Ask any upper-level racing driver. I agree that you can have no natural talent, and make it in racing, but nowhere near as far as someone with the same training in addition to natural talent.

Yes, it is true that some very good drivers are held back by lack of funds. That's life though, not everyone can make it. There's some players in Junior hockey tournament right now that are better than many in the NHL, but are past their prime so no team wants to sign them. At the same time, look at all the players that have made it who should NOT be there... same goes for racing drivers. Some make it, some don't. I'm rambling now, so I'll stop and post this before I start comparing beers or something...

MAGGOT

Victor hit the answer way up there ^^. It just has to do with doing the same thing over and over again. When I was in college, a bud and I raced on the roads way out in the sticks where we live and it was very common to be driving around at 120 mph everywhere. 100 mph was nothing to drive, it was just a cruise down the road for us. Now that I'm older, smarter, and more mature (jury still out on the last two, hehe) I drive relatively slow compared to my college years. Rarely am I above 65-70 mph anymore and if I had to do 100 for some reason, it's a white knuckle drive now.

v4forlife will go with me on this one. I got my first bike 4 years ago, the first time I was ever on a bike. Not big, just a little ole 550 inline 4 cyl. but if you rev her up past 7000 rpm, she really kicks in and takes off like a rocket. But, oh so easy to ride in low rpm for a beginner. I would head out, felt so vulnerable and conspicuous out there without any sheetmetal around me. 55 mph felt like I was flying, then later I came to realize that most bike speedometers are built with 5-10% error in them. The first time I hit 7000 rpm and felt the surge of accelleration, I was shocked at it. Now after 4 years on it, I know the bike is still pretty quick, but I twist the throttle to it's stop, shifting at 10-11,000 rpm, thinking, "come on, get going already!" My bike isn't the fastest out there, no sport bike by any means, but it does spec at 0-60mph in 4.8 seconds and specs the 1/4 mile in 12.6 seconds at 102 mph. Not bad for a 22 year old little 550 cc. (v4, I'd like to know you're specs stock if you'd pm me just out of curiosity). So it all has to do with how much you do it and how you get use to doing it. If you ran a capable car around the track for as many laps and hours as real life racer's do, then you'd eventually get use to it too and the car would just be like an extention of your arms and legs, just like my bike now feels to me and my old car felt back then at 100+ mph.

Quote from Clownpaint :

This is what the thread is all about, you are obviously a LFS'er. That's just not the sort of thing Real Racers would say, because they have experienced it.

you obviously know me very well You clearly hold 'real racers' in some very high esteem, are you one yourself or just a fanboy? I think racing is great, but I don't delude myself with ideas that the drivers are superheroes, very different to the average person...

my trailbike requires a hell of a lot more pure physical ability (strength, endurance, reactions, etc) on a casual ride, let alone an enduro event or the like, than the average race car event, from what I've seen. I could hammer my car around a track all day long and hop out a little stiff and tired, but not too bad. I've not been involved in anything involving panel rubbing, but I can't see that it would make the dramatic differences you seem to imply. I would contend that anyone with the desire, given enough seat time could become competitive in many forms of racing. I believe this to be true for racing a little more than many other sports, though all have some element of this.

Quote from Blowtus :

you obviously know me very well You clearly hold 'real racers' in some very high esteem, are you one yourself or just a fanboy? I think racing is great, but I don't delude myself with ideas that the drivers are superheroes, very different to the average person...

my trailbike requires a hell of a lot more pure physical ability (strength, endurance, reactions, etc) on a casual ride, let alone an enduro event or the like, than the average race car event, from what I've seen. I could hammer my car around a track all day long and hop out a little stiff and tired, but not too bad. I've not been involved in anything involving panel rubbing, but I can't see that it would make the dramatic differences you seem to imply. I would contend that anyone with the desire, given enough seat time could become competitive in many forms of racing. I believe this to be true for racing a little more than many other sports, though all have some element of this.

It is important and relevant to know that a racing driver is wearing fire-proof underwear ankle to neck, plus a balaclava, plus his racing suit, helmet and gloves and is sitting in a car with very little or no thermal sheilding. This creates very high temperatures that you are never going to experience on your bike. A very high level of fitness helps racers to cope with the heat stress which can be phenomenal, even over short race distances. This one aspect alone often takes many new drivers by surprise and they step up their fitness training to adapt to the harsh conditions.

In high speed motorsports, including F1 racing, you have the added stress of G forces. The type of G forces these guys deal with in some corners would make ordinary guys lose conciousness or concentration. This can be a tough hurdle to overcome and can only be done so with repetitive practice. Very tough on the body and brain, even seasoned drivers suffer from neck strain, headaches and such from these added stresses. Again, your bike won't teach you these things but they are real.

So you're sitting on the grid, have been for several minutes perhaps, you are already pissing sweat from every pore and now you have a very physical ordeal coming up that will tax your concentration and physical endurance, and all this at breakneck speeds. Motor racing is no walk in the park.

Also, you could be doing nothing wrong and still injure yourself. Some drivers have bruised or broken ribs simply by using the rumble strips in their proper mannor.

Don't get me wrong, all sports are taxing on you physically, and mentally. Most people just underestimate racing drivers and their experiences.

excellent point Gunn, completely ignored that aspect of the endurance required. Still believe in the other points, and still highly respect those talented enough to be champions.

Clownpaint, what should I read? Some heroic tales of 'real racer' daring do, written by folk like you who love to talk it up?

"racing really isn't that physically demanding or anything"

Obliously an lfs er.

"I could hammer my car around a track all day long"

Ok what are you driving a kia. with nice cushions seats and nice soft suspension to absorb all the bumps.

So you think that it is not physically demanding because it doesnt look like it is, looks are decieving. I race karts and a lot of my friends ride dirt bikes quads etc. One race in my kart is way more pyhsically demanding then an hour ride on a quad or dirtbike.

Well as far as you saying that there is no need for natural talent, that is VERY VERY wrong.

Blowtus you shouldnt go around posting about stuff you have no idea. If you have never been in a race car how can you sit there and say its not pyshically demanding, You have no idea so pls dont act like you do.



ps. I am not so great at typing so pls dont point out all of my typos.

Quote from Blowtus :

acing really isn't that physically demanding or anything, it's just a bunch of learned responses...

u should have come to the LFS karting event then, almost everyone came off the karts after 20 mins and they were shattered, and thats only indoor karts. proper karts can break your ribs just from going around a corner, they pull 3.5G, one lap and u would be shattered!

Quote :

As an example, a driver can lose up to 3.5 – 4.0 litres of fluid during a race like Malaysia, which equates to 3.5 – 4 kilos in body weight.

Let me know if you find a way to achieve the same in an hour and a half without it being physically demanding

EDIT: Karting, oh yeah. A lesson there...We were karting as a part of bacholor party. I got pole and the fastest lap in the race but had to let 2 guys by because I had no strenght left in my arms to be able to keep up the pace. That sucked

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

u should have come to the LFS karting event then, almost everyone came off the karts after 20 mins and they were shattered, and thats only indoor karts. proper karts can break your ribs just from going around a corner, they pull 3.5G, one lap and u would be shattered!

and remember the blisters some had (btw: how is your back? )...

3j

In real race you can't go 100% from beginning to end, that is not too well simulated yet, driver part of that is not probably going to be simulated ever

I don't know if I'm really a racer but when I'm on track I'm sure afraid, brake faiding is perhaps thing that I'm most scared of, it just hits so suddenly on my car, nowdays I know that if I go 100% it is only 3-4laps when I will loose 70% of braking power and it will come almost instantly.

Then track where I drive has kind of corkscrew it is uphill when laguna seca has downhill, not nearly as bad as in laguna seca, but I have not yet been able to drive that properly, too scared

With LFS you can get much better idea of real racing when you have 3 pedals and DFP (set to 720 degrees) and H-pattern sifter positioned same way as it is in your car.
Lap times will be slower, but still G-forces are missing and steering is not like real life, it is rather light at center but when you turn more than 45 degrees you need to start fighting, also G-forces pull you one or more directions, now add to this those walls and few other cars, heat and funny smells.
You will be hell scared at first, when you get adjusted to all this new enviroment that scared feeling will be going away, with more practise it may almost disappear, but just almost.

Sim racing is good but compared to real life it is just so limited, however simracing helps to open window to racing, lines and such stuff are much easier to understand.

Quote from Modoff :

One race in my kart is way more pyhsically demanding then an hour ride on a quad or dirtbike.

Then you are not riding the quad/dirtbike properly.

Get on a 2 stroke 250, ride it round a motox track with a few 80 foot triples.

After you've fell off and broke a few bones, then come back and tell me its not as physically demanding as your kart. :rolleyes:


What's the difference between a racer and a non racer?

Balls. And no sense of fear. They dont think about the consequences until its too late.

Quote from JTbo :

With LFS you can get much better idea of real racing when you have 3 pedals and DFP (set to 720 degrees) and H-pattern sifter positioned same way as it is in your car.
Lap times will be slower, but still G-forces are missing and steering is not like real life, it is rather light at center but when you turn more than 45 degrees you need to start fighting, also G-forces pull you one or more directions, now add to this those walls and few other cars, heat and funny smells.

You forgot Force Dynamics which would patch the lack of G forces.

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

hehe unlucky man! but when my track-rod snapped going around B at whilton at about 70mph, i went flat out through the fence and got knocked out. i jumped out after i woke up and straightened the sidepods etc and carried on, next heat i put it out of my mind. all people who race for real do this or they will drive round being scared and i bet u went out afterwards not thinking about it either!

Woah - you actually made it to the next heat, you didn't miss any? (I would probably have missed at least one heat)

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

u should have come to the LFS karting event then, almost everyone came off the karts after 20 mins and they were shattered, and thats only indoor karts. proper karts can break your ribs just from going around a corner, they pull 3.5G, one lap and u would be shattered!

3.5G?! Superkarts or normal karts?

Quote from L(Oo)ney :

What's the difference between a racer and a non racer?

Balls. And no sense of fear. They dont think about the consequences until its too late.

Not true. As said earlier you have to have some fear or else you would crash all the time - you can see this in non-msa karting, some are idiots with no fear who go for any and all gaps - no matter how small.

Quote from L(Oo)ney :

Balls. And no sense of fear. They dont think about the consequences until its too late.

As said above, no, that is not true. The good drivers may suppres some of their fear, but they do not get rid of it all. Not thinking of consequences does not equate to having no fear. That's acting without thinking. A driver must always evaluate the consequences before making a move. When they don't, or mis-evaluate (is that a word?), or don't trust their judgment, bad things happen.

MAGGOT

The best drivers have a huge sense of fear. Not necessarily of death or injury, but of not making the most of any situation.

Whereas a good driver with little sense might crash out trying to pass someone for a win, a really great driver will wait, push the car ahead into a mistake, evaluate all the risks, and make a decision based on them.

All forms of motor racing are dangerous (including spectating), and the people involved, if they are to do well, have to put those thoughts to the back of their mind. Not ignore them, or not have them, but learn to control it.

Karts are as physically demanding as most racing cars, the G-forces are not always as great (I very much dobut 3.5 G), but the steering is often very heavy and they tend to put a greater amount of bumping and shock into you than racing, also in indoor karts you get more shunts than in other forms of racing. I go karting about once a month with 3 real racers who all find karting far more knackering than racing single seaters.

Quote from Modoff :

Obliously an lfs er.

"I could hammer my car around a track all day long"

Ok what are you driving a kia. with nice cushions seats and nice soft suspension to absorb all the bumps.

So you think that it is not physically demanding because it doesnt look like it is, looks are decieving. I race karts and a lot of my friends ride dirt bikes quads etc. One race in my kart is way more pyhsically demanding then an hour ride on a quad or dirtbike.

Well as far as you saying that there is no need for natural talent, that is VERY VERY wrong.

Blowtus you shouldnt go around posting about stuff you have no idea. If you have never been in a race car how can you sit there and say its not pyshically demanding, You have no idea so pls dont act like you do.

rx7 turbo, but you're right that it's much more comfortable than the majority of race cars, though I don't see that racing in a 'stock' car class makes you not a 'real racer' either. The point that racing can be very tiring has already been accepted.

I never said there is no need for natural talent, just that I don't believe it's as necessary to achieve success in racing as in many other sports, because the money / time factor is so much more important. (than many other sports) I suspect the same would be true of the huge ocean powerboat racing, around the world yacht racing, space shuttle racing... etc

Quote from Clownpaint :

That's not true, but then neither is what he's saying. They are both very physically demanding. It just sounds like tit for tat at the moment.

"MY BIKE PWNZ j00z CARS"
"YEAH U TRY RACING MY KART IT PWNZ JooR BIKE!!"

you're right, the potential for it to be taken like that probably didn't help the point at all. Surely, car racing can still be a valid and great sport, without it's physical requirements being of the highest level? There are plenty of old blokes still highly competitive, (obviously not in all forms) whereas many highly demanding sports they're finished by mid 30's...

Sorry, I'd have stopped by now, I feel like everything I've said is being taken out of context though ah well.

money

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

u should have come to the LFS karting event then, almost everyone came off the karts after 20 mins and they were shattered, and thats only indoor karts. proper karts can break your ribs just from going around a corner, they pull 3.5G, one lap and u would be shattered!

I can confirm the ribs bit. Some guy who raced Snr Max hurt his ribs while racing and now can never race again because he can't last a few corners before his ribs hurt. He is 50odd but a quick old guy he was

Keiran

Formula A in europe can pull 3.5G