WOW, LFS is a game?, who'd have thunk it.............

Bottomline, LFS is, has never been, and never will be "true to life", it's just not possible/fesabile.

I am not quite sure of your point intrepid, but it sounds a little like "I am a real racer, and I expect everyone, even little johnny, to behave like they would IRL", thats just not how it is, especially on public servers, people are there for fun, and to kick up their heels a little.

Join a league, thats the only way to will come close to what you strive for.

Also, IRL, you wouldn't have been allowed on the track mid race would you...........

I think 'flippant' is the word I'd choose to describe the way people drive in LFS.
The whole attitude of "Meh, it doesn't matter" is blatant. Now I'm not saying that you should drive like it's life or death or anything, but coming off your line to avoid a collision (however minor) is only polite.
If it cost you as much in game terms as it does cash IRL people would take more care.

Yeah, but you have to draw the line somewhere, getting pissed because some took you out is one thing.

But having a little paddy because some guy told you that you would be black flagged IRL for following him is just mental.........

Most of the racers I encouter in public servers are very well behaved, sure there are a few cocks, but they are few and far between, and pretty much everyone I have ever raced with in leagues are top notch.

I just get a little pee'd about this elitist attitude that seems to rear it's ugly head, it's still a freakin game which ever way you slice it, it's all about perspective really.......

I think throughout the world of LFS there are people with very different competitive natures. And to make the point a little clearer, you're not going to find anyone but (at least close to) the most competitive type of person in the world of "proper" real racing (whatever the actual standard of driving).

Some people in LFS are all "must win-win-win-win", others are not. You don't need to be the former to enjoy LFS, and you certainly don't need to be the former to enjoy a pick-up public server race. Many of the "win-win-win" people restrain themselves slightly in the name of sportsmanship, well not neccessarily sportsmanship, but for the sake of fun, which is what it's meant to be. That's why you don't get the same intensity all the time, with all racers, as you would in real life. It's that simple imo.

Quote from tristancliffe :

In a sim, with very equal cars, and lots and lots of track time (and hence familiarity) it's often for quick people to be very very similar in speed, braking points, styles etc. Which is why it's a lot more common to have two cars running together with little action.

I think it's also got a lot to do with having exactly the same track. Bumps are pretty scarce, you're rarely turning while braking, so everybody can apply pretty much the same braking force. And if you do lock wheels it doesn't make a huge amount of difference to your braking distance. I think we could sum this up with "Braking's too easy".

I agree with whoever said this before: It's just as important to me, to not ruin someone else's race as it is to win the race. If I'm racing people I know I'll be more aggressive, because I know they'll forgive me if it all goes wrong and they'll enjoy the fight, but if it's people I don't know I'll give them more room.

I am not a win at all costs driver. I am as far from that attitude as you could imagine. Watching me drive might suggest differently, but it's not the case.

I am not saying I have a problem with the way people drive, but the attitude they have towards what I call 'real racing'. Constant complaints about perfectly legitimate moves, perfectly good starts, even perfectly good cock ups that happen from time to time.

I disagree with it's 'just a game' and will never achieve 'perfect realism'. The idea of the devs is to constantly progress and achieve realism... why shouldn't I as a racer treat my sim racing in the same way. Real racing is FUN....

I know real racing isn't really the right term to use as it doesn't really exist, but the attitude to racing in real life is different than in LFS.

I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is this feeling I get that racers on LFS, some anyway, are trying to make LFS into their own reality, rather than LFS being a reflection of reality. Something it inherently strives for... otherwise it would be classed a racing game, and not racing sim.

That is purely on a personal level. I strive for realism as a racer in LFS. I treat LFS and reality the same.

Quote from Intrepid :

We have argued many times on this forum about racing in LFS compared to real life an so on...

And it is slowly appearing, to me anyway, that LFS, in online racing terms, is being moulded into a sim that doesn't represent 'real' racing, but more so what people 'think' real racing should be like. So like something with in itself not connected with reality.

This has nothing t do with physics or whatever, but on a personal experience I come across so many odd comments from people that bare NO resemblance to actual real life racing.

For example, I came out of the pits mid race, caught the leader who was a lap ahead of me, and I thought... right I still need to pick me braking points and so on... so I will sit behind this guy and chill...... I won't pester him or anything like that...

anyway race finishes... and this guy says I would have been black flagged??? what for I ask.....?? 'Disturbing Him'...!!! lol well I never.... all I did was drive around the circuit... made no attempt to overtake... or even touch him, and this person is telling me that in RL I would black flagged.... which completely ISN'T THE CASE!

Anyway, my point is this....

Is LFS, especially raciing online, developing into a real life sim, or a representation of what people would like real racing to be like?

I race LFS in EXACTLY the same way as i DO in real life, because I respect that sim.

And I have only ever been banned ONCE.... and that was fro being a dumbass.... I thought the race was over for some reason and wrecked the leaders coming out of the pits.... but I have never been banned for racing, yet on several occasions people have complained!

Just the way people race, the expectations they have during a race... it just isn't the same in reality. I can spot real life racers a MILE OFF in LFS because they are the ones who race like what I would expect in a real race.

I am not having a go at these people who I consider not really treating lFS as a rl sim, but noticing what is happening.

Quote from tristancliffe :

In this case, that driver was wrong. Of course you can follow who you like, as long as you weren't right up behind him etc.

But to say that "LFS is being moulded..." in that direction is wrong, and unfair on LFS/Scavier. The problem isn't LFS, and it isn't Scavier. It's the players - people who think that they know about racing and what's allowed, when in fact they are wrong.

I think ANY rule is okay on a server, as long as the rule is easy to see and obvious. The server owners can do what they like. If they say only overtake whilst travelling backwards else a ban, then fair enough, if they make that rule easy to find (displayed on joining, not a 'Read the Rules' message, which nobody in their right mind would bother doing).

But on an 'open' server, where there aren't Specific Regulations, people should obey a fixed set of racing rules that mirrors reality (within the bounds of computer hardware, where applicable).

Feel free to write 'The LFS Online Racing Rules', and get it on a website (a wiki to start with?). If it's publicised and sensible, it could a) be used by everyone and b) be endorsed by the LFS devs and linked to on websites or ingame.

Both great posts.

Quote from Intrepid :

the amount of times I have been reported on CTRA is a JOKE.... only sanctioned once which I fully deserved...

I took the liberty of looking into it, and for clarity you've been reported twice and sanctioned once. The one time you were sanctioned, as you said, you did deserve it but the other time, you didn't deserve it and the complaint was dismissed

If people have gone off at you on the track loads of times and said they're going to be reporting you, and then not done, then it's probably comparable with real life too. Consider the number of times F1 drivers, for example, bitch and complain about other drivers (racing drivers are notorious for blaming everyone but themselves, after all) but no penalties or consequences follow. I would say that, all said, LFS drivers are probably MORE tolerant rather than less tolerant than real life.

I think you *perceive* LFS drivers as "nancies", but I suspect that you're drawing conclusions based on in-server back/forth banter/accusations rather than actual complaints, and at the end of the day the difference between real and sim that YOU perceive actually simply revolves around the ability to hit "T" and communicate directly with your adversary. It's perceptual, but not actually that different when you look at the ACTUAL complaints/whinges filed

Quote from Intrepid :

I race LFS in EXACTLY the same way as i DO in real life, because I respect that sim.

You don't race cars IRL. You race karts. The two couldn't be more different.

lol I thought I had been reported more!

I agree largely with your post, and you make some very valid points. If it is true that I have only been reported twice, I don't know how you check, it surprises me because I have threatened many more times.

Again though there is the re-occurring theme of complaints... and occasionally in the way people drive that says to me they want LFS to reflect what they want real life to be.

maybe I might just press - before I race next time

Quote from srdsprinter :

You don't race cars IRL. You race karts. The two couldn't be more different.

deleted: whats the point in arguing with these peeps

I would like to think the racing in the GFC is very close to real life in terms of rules. Have a look at the rules I created for this series and feedback to me what you think in terms of how they compare to real life racing. I would like to think they are very close.

The GFC also has a proper judicial system that enforces the rules. If people break the rules they are penalised.

It's resulted in the cleanest LFS racing I've ever been involved in at least.

Information regarding the competition can be found here:

http://gentlefoot.com/GFC.html

I would really appreciate your opinion on this stuff seeing as you have RL experience.

Quote from Intrepid :

If it is true that I have only been reported twice, I don't know how you check,[...]

I wrote the web admin interface for the CTRA and I'm one of the CTRA admins

Quote from Gentlefoot :

I would like to think the racing in the GFC is very close to real life in terms of rules. Have a look at the rules I created for this series and feedback to me what you think in terms of how they compare to real life racing. I would like to think they are very close.

The GFC also has a proper judicial system that enforces the rules. If people break the rules they are penalised.

It's resulted in the cleanest LFS racing I've ever been involved in at least.

Information regarding the competition can be found here:

http://gentlefoot.com/GFC.html

I would really appreciate you opinion on this stuff seeing as you have RL experience.

Dude, seriously...

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Dude, seriously...

No thread is sacred.

It's not like my point is completely irrelevant to this thread. Obviously I will draw on my frames of reference when discussing issues relating to LFS and the GFC is part of that frame of reference.

I'm making a genuine point. Intrepid is expressing a concern that the racing in LFS in moulded by the community. Well I am one of those characters that he speaks of doing the moulding. I would like him to feedback to me what he thinks of the rules I have created. Maybe I will gain something from his knowledge and experience.

Before criticising other people posting genuine comments in a thread maybe you should think about what value you are adding to a debate by making posts like the last two. None at all as far as I can see.

I don't want to put words into anyone else's mouth, but I think we just find it either ludicrous or piss funny (depending on mood at the time) that every post you make these days is plugging your website.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I don't want to put words into anyone else's mouth, but I think we just find it either ludicrous or piss funny (depending on mood at the time) that every post you make these days is plugging your website.

Does it matter if the post is contributing to the debate in a particular thread, or helping the thread starter in some way?

I've also plugged CTRA in a recent thread about which servers to join but I have nothing to do with CTRA do I!!

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Does it matter if the post is contributing to the debate in a particular thread, or helping the thread starter in some way?

The only thing your post contributed to was the attendance of your league--it doesn't even begin to address the topic at hand.

Look, I like the GFC. I agree that it produces good racing and that you're a good admin. One of my teammates is fighting for the championship and has nothing but good things to say about it.

That said, you DO spam threads at any opportunity and it IS kind of annoying (to me and Kev and a couple others I've spoken to, at least). Just take it down a notch, man!

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I don't want to put words into anyone else's mouth, but I think we just find it either ludicrous or piss funny (depending on mood at the time) that every post you make these days is plugging your website.

Oh come on fella it ain't all that bad if you want piss funny go read the STCC website's front page, the best "virtual" racing series in the world - those guys can't get enough of themselves but no ones complaining or the amount of CTRA spam we've had to endure.


And Intrepid if you wan't some real racing with skilled drivers and what not I suggest you get some more track time and join a decent team, then migrate from these turdy public servers into a top leauge. Come race in the BoTT or MoE and you'll see different types of 'attitudes' to what you get on public.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

The only thing your post contributed to was the attendance of your league--it doesn't even begin to address the topic at hand.

How can you say it doesn't begin to address the topic at hand? It precicely addresses it! The discussion was about how people in the LFS community percieve how racing in LFS should be like and comparisons with real life racing. My post asked the original poster to look at my rules (which I developed based on my perceptions of what I think LFS racing should be like) and provide feedback to see whether he feels it matches real life racing or not. How you can say that doesn't address the topic at hand I don't know.

How exactly has your last two posts addresses the topic at hand prey tell?

Actually - don't. Because we are now hijacking this thread and turning it into an argument about whether I should have posted and we are not actually discussing the original posters genuine topic at all. I try and avoid getting involved in these pointless arguments with people like you so I won't post any more responses to your pointless, small minded comments.

Handbags, gentlemen.

Quote from Rooble :

migrate from these turdy public servers into a top leauge.

This is a very good point. League racing is completely different from public server racing. The standard is much higher for the following reasons:

No restarts - you have to wait a week possibly 2 for another chance if you crash at T1;

Longer races - more time to make a pass so less banzai, over optimistic manouvres;

Clear rules and possibly judicial - as I mentioned in my original post;

The racers get to know each other;

There are points at stake.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

How can you say it doesn't begin to address the topic at hand? It precicely addresses it! The discussion was about how people in the LFS community percieve how racing in LFS should be like and comparisons with real life racing. My post asked the original poster to look at my rules (which I developed based on my perceptions of what I think LFS racing should be like) and provide feedback to see whether he feels it matches real life racing or not. How you can say that doesn't address the topic at hand I don't know.

The substantive content of your original post was essentially back-patting praise of your league and a strategically-placed link to the league's site under the guise of contributing to discussion.

Rules were not really the subject at hand, as the topic was really the way that drivers treat racing in LFS, psychologically (i.e., why do some drivers play it safe while others take big risks; why do people perhaps over-readily protest risky moves; why do karters seem to have such a big chip on their shoulders , etc). These questions were being addressed somewhat intelligently and there was good discussion going on. Your redirection to the rules for the GFC is tangentially related, but it seems to be to be another thinly-veiled self-promotion tactic that disrupted the thread more than it contributed to it (again, in my opinion). Now, I may have disrupted it more directly, but this sort of activity has been getting on my nerves for some time now.

I realize that any attempt to critique you for your self-promotion activities on this forum is a) going to make me look like the bad guy ("GF is providing a great service for the LFS community and you just don't want good leagues in LFS to succeed!") and b) going to be dismissed as off-topic (it is, but sometimes things need to be said). I do want leagues to succeed, but I want them to succeed according to the established rules of the forum, which indicate that the vast majority of league promotion activity should take place in the league forum. I appreciate that you usually make some effort to fit your advertisements into relevant posts, but they remain advertisements all the same.

Quote :

How exactly has your last two posts addresses the topic at hand prey tell?

...in that your post changed the topic at hand to the GFC, as do most of your posts.

Quote :

Actually - don't. Because we are now hijacking this thread and turning it into an argument about whether I should have posted and we are not actually discussing the original posters genuine topic at all. I try and avoid getting involved in these pointless arguments with people like you so I won't post any more responses to your pointless, small minded comments.

Dismissing any criticism as pointless and small-minded is about as small-minded as you can get. Congrats.

@ Bob Smith, sorry for the scene.

Quote from Rooble :

Oh come on fella it ain't all that bad if you want piss funny go read the STCC website's front page, the best "virtual" racing series in the world - those guys can't get enough of themselves but no ones complaining or the amount of CTRA spam we've had to endure.

Actually I have pulled them up in the past for bollocking on about how they've got the best, most professional sim-racing "in the world". I stopped doing it because I came to the conclusion that they actually believe it, so what's the point...

I've also bitched a lot about the CTRA userbars cluttering up every corner of the forum. At first the justification for them was that they were "for leagues", but in this case they're apparently also "for servers". I could probably get my own userbars on the forum these days if I set up a server. I appreciate that they're providing a good service, but the mess they leave behind pisses me off.

Edit: If I come across as a grumpy, cynical arsehole it's because I am a grumpy, cynical arsehole.