Quote from Ian.H :

And our survey says [insert stupid sound here].

So the phrase "incompatible patch" doesn't affect the content.. now, I wonder, what would be the meaning of 'incompatible'.

Seriously, LFS isn't some creation of god that has some kind of magical powers or whatever you want to believe it has.



Regards,

Ian

The only change is the hotlap records get removed. The MRT will still be there. The LX6 will still be there. The BF1 will still be there.

With rF2, 99% of the cars in the game won't be there, and would have to be made again, probably from scratch (apart from 3D models, but even then they might need a lot of work with a new engine).

LFS doesn't have magical powers, but the lack of modding means we don't lose out with new versions, it's only a gain.

Quote from PLAYLIFE :

Yeah, cos you = majority, we should ditch AI. Especially, as Scawen has spent so much time on it now.

I have no idea what you are trying to imply by that. I suggest you go have a w@nk and de-angry. You sound like an AI-fanboy hahaha

Funny how the people who are actually really good at drifting seem to avoid this forum...wonder why

Back on topic, I rekon the devs have done a great job so far, and they will continue to do so. It may take a long time for updates, but at least we get them, and for free.

Quote from tristancliffe :

The only change is the hotlap records get removed. The MRT will still be there. The LX6 will still be there. The BF1 will still be there.

Right, so the reason Eric hasn't fixed all the bugs in the current tracks and released a patch is? The reason I can't play old replays with the current version of LFS is? The apparent reason why we haven't got decent interiors yet is?

Quote :

With rF2, 99% of the cars in the game won't be there, and would have to be made again, probably from scratch (apart from 3D models, but even then they might need a lot of work with a new engine).

Nothing but speculation. I can make a couple of path changes to GTL files and they'll drop right into GTR2. If ISI have any sense, they'll make the 2 versions very compatible. Not much work is involved in F1C->rF porting either, although more than "todays" games, but that's to be expected due to such a large time span between the 2 releases.

Note however, I have no faith in ISI whatsoever.. they should have fixed rF before thinking about rF2. I certainly didn't get the product I paid for, and was a(n involuntary) beta tester for the 2 years I worked with rF.

Quote :

LFS doesn't have magical powers, but the lack of modding means we don't lose out with new versions, it's only a gain.

Once again, just like S3, no one knows what it may entail.. again, speculation. I'm also sure that if ISI want, they can add everything they release for rF1 as part of the core of rF2, thus losing nothing.

As for your reason for your statement, that's just crap... how many insim "mods" stopped working recently due to changes Scawen made in the insim code? IIRC, quite a few (most / all?). Just because LFS mods aren't cars or tracks, doesn't mean it's not "modable". I know _all_ of my XRT skins from S1 became useless in S2 as Eric changed the mapping.. so I lost a lot.



Regards,

Ian

Quote from Ian.H :

Right, so the reason Eric hasn't fixed all the bugs in the current tracks and released a patch is? The reason I can't play old replays with the current version of LFS is? The apparent reason why we haven't got decent interiors yet is?

Because he hasn't done them, or LFS hasn't been ready for them to be included in a patch. Because LFS is progressing, and old replays use old physics. The same as reason 1. But we've not lost anything important. And LFS certainly loses less per patch/update/version than rFactor. I don't see how that can be argued - name one rFactor mod that will work with rFactor2 with any certainty without any work? Name one LFS car/track that won't work in S3 with any certainty?

Of course mods that use code will go out of the window. And skins will have to change - it's called progress, and is a good thing. But rFactor NEEDS the mods, be they cars, plugins or whatever (out of the box it's utter and undeniable tripe), whereas LFS doesn't really - although CTRA is okay - the rest are pretty pointless...

Of course it's nothing but speculation. But the reason you can use GTR1 stuff in GTR2 is because both use virtually identically shite engines. It wasn't really an update at all, but a way of cashing in on stupid people who think it's realistic.

Had to make a post about the AI. It would be interesting to see if the people who cry about T1 pile ups and being crashed out when lapping cars, are the same people saying we don't need AI. I would rather have more intelligent AI, and an extended training section which includes flag rules and race craft, than a new car or new track. Simply because it might improve the quality of online public races.

Quote from flymike91 :

I don't really care about better AI, i only race online. I hope the devs don't spend too much of their time on that IMO

It would be sensible to be using the ai code for the online prediction, so improving the ai may also improve the online prediction too.

Simon

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

an extended training section which includes flag rules and....

First you would obviously need yellow flags that work properly! I hope it's on Scawen's list right after whatever he is working right now. At the moment they are really unreliable, sometimes there is nothing on the track to slow for and sometimes they don't work at all and you get dangerous situations. Some kind of marshal intelligence would be interesting.

I think that stuff would probably come shortly after the AI improvements. We just need a few more flag sectors and more flags really. I don't think the flag system is so bad that you don't get information from it, I tend to avoid incidents if I see a yellow flag before it...however some people don't know what the flags actually mean, or choose to ignore them.

It would be nice just to have it explained for those people, perhaps showing why its statistically better to slow down for yellows, rather than floor it and hope for the best.

Quote :

But rFactor NEEDS the mods, be they cars, plugins or whatever

Going by the thread title and many other forum posts of late I'd infer that LFS is also needing some good mods, or at the very least some new official content. Call me spoilsport but I don't really see LFS's increasingly percieved lack in this area as 'feature'.

Having mods for LFS would be like installing a home cinema in your new house when you aint even finished digging the foundations.

Spoilsport

Quote from tristancliffe :

Because he hasn't done them, or LFS hasn't been ready for them to be included in a patch.

I'm talking about the simple things, such as fixing those terrible random "shadows" due to unwelded vertices.. something LFS doesn't need to be "prepared for" and something that should have been done years ago (wouldn't you have been embarrassed to release such material? It's the very reason I didn't release all the tracks I'd done for rF.. I wasn't happy with the end result.. pride and all that).

2 years is _more_ than enough time to fix those issues if nothing else. I've fixed over 2,500 vertices after I screwed up with raising a track slightly from the grass region.. took me ~2 hours and I'm certainly no professional modeller as you know.

Quote :

Because LFS is progressing, and old replays use old physics. The same as reason 1. But we've not lost anything important. And LFS certainly loses less per patch/update/version than rFactor.

What has rF lost between patches? I started working on my XRT conversion in 1.020.. ironically, without change, it still works the same in 1.150. Your argument here is flawed probably by lack of knowledge in this area.

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I don't see how that can be argued - name one rFactor mod that will work with rFactor2 with any certainty without any work?

You know as well as I do, neither I, nor you, can claim one that will or wont.

Quote :

Name one LFS car/track that won't work in S3 with any certainty?

Probably none, the same as Toban, Essington etc will probably work fine in rF2 as ISI will update what's needed, just as Scawen and Eric will for LFS.

Quote :

Of course mods that use code will go out of the window. And skins will have to change - it's called progress, and is a good thing. But rFactor NEEDS the mods, be they cars, plugins or whatever (out of the box it's utter and undeniable tripe), whereas LFS doesn't really - although CTRA is okay - the rest are pretty pointless...

rF maybe doesn't have quite as many cars as LFS out of the box (not mentioning tracks as 100s of combos of one track is boring as hell and shows lack of thought / imagination). Not saying that rF's default content is great, but I'm not saying LFS' is either.. I'm bored as hell with the LFS content (tracks mainly).

Quote :

Of course it's nothing but speculation. But the reason you can use GTR1 stuff in GTR2 is because both use virtually identically shite engines. It wasn't really an update at all, but a way of cashing in on stupid people who think it's realistic.

Ding! Gee... I wonder whether ISI will use a "virtually identical shite engine" too.

Open your eyes Tristan. I know you don't have any time for rF (neither do I for that matter these days).. but you're blinkered something chronic.



Regards,

Ian

You are aware I'm talking about rF - rF2 not rF v.x to rF v.(x+0.1)?

I know, from your posting history, that simple concepts struggle to get through to you, but you've obviously missed the point I was making. Perhaps reading the post that riled you again would help?

And yes, I'm fairly confident that ISI and all near-future versions will use the same virtually idental shit engine for some time. They don't appear to care for simulation - if they did then there is no way GTR, GTL, GTR2, rFactor, BMW Thingy..... would ever have been released.

Quote from tristancliffe :

You are aware I'm talking about rF - rF2 not rF v.x to rF v.(x+0.1)?

And there's where you argument falls flat on its face entirely. Unless you have some inside, privvy knowledge of rF2.. you're whistling dixie out of your arse as you obviously have no idea about rF2, the same as most of us here regarding S3.

Quote :

I know, from your posting history, that simple concepts struggle to get through to you, but you've obviously missed the point I was making. Perhaps reading the post that riled you again would help?

Nothing's riled me, actually I couldn't be in a happier mood.. just that what you bitch about others doing (which I usually agree with), you're sliding yourself into the same category: talking without knowing shit about what you're talking about! Nothing but stupid assumptions.. and you know what they say about assumptions. My guess is you have absolutely no knowledge of what it takes to get even a flat, single textured plane into rF, yet you attempt to speak like you're an expert on the subject of what it can / can't do just because you have a hard time driving it and think that the sun's rays spell L F S.

Quote :

And yes, I'm fairly confident that ISI and all near-future versions will use the same virtually idental shit engine for some time. They don't appear to care for simulation - if they did then there is no way GTR, GTL, GTR2, rFactor, BMW Thingy..... would ever have been released.

So if they're going to use the same (or very similar engine), why do you see such difficulties between rF1 and rF2?

I'd see a quack if I was you.. that fanboiitis is really taking a grip on your (limited) senses.



Regards,

Ian

Quote :

Having mods for LFS would be like installing a home cinema in your new house when you aint even finished digging the foundations.

Sometimes I think we're all huddled inside without a fireplace and no roof. And sometimes it's raining

Heh- don't worry about me and my moods. I've digested all the pros and cons for and against modding. But I wasn't just talking about mods. Not that I feel let down, or ripped off- (a kind stranger bought me S2) I have faith in the development progress of LFS. But reading something like this...

Quote :

The only change is the hotlap records get removed. The MRT will still be there. The LX6 will still be there. The BF1 will still be there.

With rF2, 99% of the cars in the game won't be there, and would have to be made again, probably from scratch (apart from 3D models, but even then they might need a lot of work with a new engine).

LFS doesn't have magical powers, but the lack of modding means we don't lose out with new versions, it's only a gain.

just feels wrong to me. Apart from being total speculation, its a suggestion that nothing will, or should change from S2 to S3. Which is a kind of statement against progress. If you don't care that the models from S2 aren't updated for S3- or that physics updates are so negligable that they'll have no real effect on handling (meaning more work), or that the tracks stay the same so as not to break compatability... why even have an S3? So you can do all the things the way you do them now, at night?

I don't care what gets broken really, as long as things are improved for the better.

[off topic] On the subject of yellow flags, can an admin of a server throw a yellow flag to everyone in a race, cos the other day i raced a whole race under yellow flag. [end of off topic]

The longer the distance between two patches, the more improvements will be made. (hopefully - or it could be major improvements that take alot of time!)

Quote from Electrik Kar :

Apart from being total speculation, its a suggestion that nothing will, or should change from S2 to S3. Which is a kind of statement against progress. If you don't care that the models from S2 aren't updated for S3- or that physics updates are so negligable that they'll have no real effect on handling (meaning more work), or that the tracks stay the same so as not to break compatability... why even have an S3? So you can do all the things the way you do them now, at night?

I never ever said S3 won't have updated models, or updated this that or the other. I'm just saying that they'll still work! Download, install, connect, play. Job done. With rFactor2 I'm guessing (and of course it's speculation, I'm not denying it, but it's what I believe will occur) that most of the mods won't work. So it'll be Download, install, connect, wait for new mods to be made and sorted out which might take months, play.

LFS content will always be compatible with LFS. You don't suddenly find that the XRT doesn't work because it hasn't been converted to the new version. Because it's all packaged content it will still work! Simple. Of course, rFactor contains some content as standard, and that's also going to be compatible out of the box (by definition). But the life of rFactor - the mods - won't be there from day one.

I give up. It's a really simple concept - maybe I'm not making it clear enough...

Folks are seeming to fail to remember, or know at all, what the differences between S1 and S2 are. As released versions, there were huge differences. New content added to the old content. Both a physics and graphics update. New features such as tire wear and heat and pitstops. Now think of it as the differences between S1 and S2 licensing? What do the S2 users have that the S1 users don't have? Content and only content. They still got the physics, graphics, and feature changes.

I'm speculating that this will be the same with S3. The S1 and S2 licensed users will get any and all physics and graphical improvements, causing no problems with compatibility. They just won't get the content. By content, I am also specualting that stuff like rain, wet track, debri and/or dirt on the track, etc will be like the content that Aston, Kyoto, GTRs, LFRs were to S1 vs S2.

They won't be backwards compatible simply because there will be no backwards. Just as when S2 was released, the lower licensed users will have access to the same physics/graphics/other that the S3 users will, except for the content.

The LFS devs are the ones who will make the current content compatible with the new version. The rFactor devs have nothing to do with the content in their sim. Thus, nothing will be compatible.

Exactly, thanks Mike

Quote :

I give up. It's a really simple concept - maybe I'm not making it clear enough...

Ah, sorry Tristan. I guess I was getting modded and unmodded confused. I thought you were talking about 'out of the box' (future versions of) LFS and rFactor as a side by side thing. I'm trying to eat dinner, watch TV, and read the forum all at the same time. Bit distracting...

I guess guys really can't multitask!

edit- yep. You made it pretty clear you were talking about mods. Sorry 'bout that.

Quote from mrodgers :

By content, I am also specualting that stuff like rain, wet track, debri and/or dirt on the track, etc will be like the content that Aston, Kyoto, GTRs, LFRs were to S1 vs S2.

No way. An S1 license still has heat and tire wear and so forth, these things are not "content" they are things that are built into the engine of the sim. All license holders will have the same features, just like S1-S2. Otherwise cross license racing would be impossible, which it is not. This is not really speculation, since it's been alluded to and is an idea that's been constructed both through experience and just reading the board for years. So, it's safe to say "this will be the case unless something changes". Speculation? sure, just like I guess no one knows if the sun will really rise tomorrow, or not. It should, unless something changes. You would know this if you were not so concerned with your sex wee.

Quote from Electrik Kar :

I guess guys really can't multitask!

Technically nobody, male or female, can process more than one "thought-thread" at a time, but rather switching between multiple ones is commonly called "multi-tasking". I hate corporate buzzwords with a passion :gnasher:

Quote from Electrik Kar :

Going by the thread title and many other forum posts of late I'd infer that LFS is also needing some good mods, or at the very least some new official content. Call me spoilsport but I don't really see LFS's increasingly percieved lack in this area as 'feature'.

I don't think the devs intended S2 to take as long as it has, though. They've said that there were unforeseen interruptions (Eric's new house, Scawen's new family member) so we just have to be a bit more patient.

I am looking forward to seeing new content and new features, but most of it will be routinely ignored online anyway, so I'm glad the AI is coming first.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Technically nobody, male or female, can process more than one "thought-thread" at a time, but rather switching between multiple ones is commonly called "multi-tasking". I hate corporate buzzwords with a passion :gnasher:

hey if you've got some free bandwidth, do you think you could ping bob for the results of those tests he was running?

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I hate corporate buzzwords with a passion :gnasher:

My fave, of all time so far, is POT. "Plain Ordinary Telephone".