Quote from lalathegreat :

when i first started playing the game. i thought ok only 4 real tracks, but hey its 3 people. I thought maybe well i guess instead of waiting until its complete they can release as they go. 2 years later virtually the same content. I am getting the feeling that they won't be any new cars or tracks in S2.

Well, do'h. Content comes every stage, wouldn't make sense releasing content for free, if it can be put in S3 would it? Of course, it could be changed in a way that S3 wouldn't be about content but features, and I think Scawen mentioned something about changing the concept earlier. But I doubt such radical change happens.

Quote from Vykos69 :

What exactly are you pointing at, Sin? How are they flawed and easily changeable? Any detailed infos?

Cheerio, old buddy

Heh well since you ask.
The "fill to" system is stupid, and the way you have to mess about whilst racing if you change your plan and decide to stop early is crazy, one of the first things suggested was a versatile "add X% at stop" option.
You can't specify a particular tyre to change.
You can't change to a different compound of tyre, much less to a part worn tyre (should you so desire).
You can't instruct the "team" not to waste ages fixing damage.
You can stop in any pit box you like, but that's minor compared with the way that if you pull in in front of someone in a crowded pit lane, and as they leave they tap you, even slightly - that's your pit stop ended- no fuel yet? go around a lap, brilliant

Now I don't code myself, so that's why I said "to my eyes", but those things seem like minor tasks in the grand scheme of things, but they'd improve things loads imho.

Quote from sinbad :

Heh well since you ask.
The "fill to" system is stupid, and the way you have to mess about whilst racing if you change your plan and decide to stop early is crazy, one of the first things suggested was a versatile "add X% at stop" option.
You can't specify a particular tyre to change.
You can't change to a different compound of tyre, much less to a part worn tyre (should you so desire).
You can't instruct the "team" not to waste ages fixing damage.
You can stop in any pit box you like, but that's minor compared with the way that if you pull in in front of someone in a crowded pit lane, and as they leave they tap you, even slightly - that's your pit stop ended- no fuel yet? go around a lap, brilliant

Now I don't code myself, so that's why I said "to my eyes", but those things seem like minor tasks in the grand scheme of things, but they'd improve things loads imho.

If you have "add X%" then you still need to change it to get to the end of the race. I've never understood why people get confused with "fill to X%" Edit: Sorted this in my head now and understand. But I don't think it's that difficult the way it is. Seems very sensible to me. But I can see why Sinbad wants the other method
Changing a particular tyre might be nice
Changing to a part-worn tyre would require the 'stats' of old tyres to be remembered, and that's not something any sim does. I would like to have it one day, but it's use is questionable most of the time.
The damage repair is the only incentive not to rub/hit people, as there is no aero penalty for body damage. I'm confident that it will be sorted when body damage changes handling/performance.
Being tapped mid pitstop is an annoying 'bug' and should be sorted somehow - either locking you in the pitstop, or ending it without doing the remaining work...

Quote from tristancliffe :

If you have "add X%" then you still need to change it to get to the end of the race. I've never understood why people get confused with "fill to X%"

With current system you have to stop exactly when you have chosen to before the race or you need to edit your F12 while racing. Pit too late and your pitstop is too long and pit too early and you don't have enough fuel. Add % is so simpler to think and calculate while racing. It only needs fiddling when you don't have enough space for the fuel you want to add on your next stop (you need to stop way earlier than you though, for example).

Imho the current system is unintuitive (sp) and hard to live with if you have make changes to your pitting strategy while racing.

And pitstop should end when you leave the pit spot you were sitting at. Not if someone nudges you. It should be possible to leave too early too (accidentally jump starting) and lose a tire and drive over some poor mechanic. The car could turn into a fireball too.

So simple things. But maybe it is like the rewindable replays. You just learn to live without...

I think the pitstop system needs the following improvements (which covers what sinbad has said and a bit more):

1. Ability to choose between fuel to x% and add x%
2. Ability to plan more than one pitstop - ie, a special strategy screen would be nice, where you can add planned pitstops (as many as you'd like - with a little add button to add another pitstop) and not only set the fuel load but select tyres to be changed, set camber changes (particularly handy for endurance where your team-mate might like a slightly different setup), set wing changes and everything. Basically everything from the F12 screen for as many pitstops ahead as you'd like.
3. A used tyre rack that can store up to 4 sets of tyres per car, to be used at a later stage. You should be able to select one of these tyre sets in your pit strategy.

The complication with this system comes with having team races such as MoE - a good system must be worked out and that's where the complication comes in.

As for having the option to not fix damage, I agree with Tristan - it should only be added once there is a better damage model and it's easier to end your race.

Quote from axus :

set camber changes (particularly handy for endurance where your team-mate might like a slightly different setup)

A bit off the original topic but in my opinion the option to change the camber during the pitstop it totally unrealistic and should be removed. At least I haven't seen it happen in a normal pitstop in any racing series (Please correct me if it's done anywhere).

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

Having mods for LFS would be like installing a home cinema in your new house when you aint even finished digging the foundations.

Yes, you have a point, but this also shows that people are up to the challenge of trying new things, thus creating mods and what not.

I'd highly suggest a Snow/Rain effects, actual snow mounting on each other, like layers, I wonder if thats possible

Also from that Snow/rain effect, there should be weather effects, Raining= grip decreases/hydroplaning

Snowing=limited visibility/ chain tires/ slippery/slushy effect for grip.

This would mark the beginning of extreme realism, to this day, no other online racing simulator has overcome through obstacles/updates/patches/mods/bugs/fixes... I'm very impressed, in fact, I'm marking it that on November 20th, I'm buy S2, its proven itself an amazing game time and time again!

Just posting one message got me to buy S2, who would've thought?

LFS S2 Patch Z / LFS S3 FOR THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!

Nick

Congratulation, you will not regret having a lisence
As you mention with snow and such, it would be awesome, but boy, it would be hard to implent

Lol Thank You.

Yes, I do see what you mean, it'll be a pain in the neck to create such an update with snow/visibility effects.

and the snow... yikes! Layers of it might not be too bad.

Gripping and all might be easier by changing the values for grip based on the DDS file or similar.

But night shouldn't be a problem, there's already a mod download for that, now all the Devs have to do is make an official part of LFS..

I wonder whether an effect for Roads freezing could be done. A 4WD Championship would open up in S2

Nick

You know, I've been thinking, What will happen post S-3? Like to the master server and to LFS world? like i dunno about two or three years after the final s-3 patch. What happens then?

Quote from Racer Y :

You know, I've been thinking, What will happen post S-3? Like to the master server and to LFS world? like i dunno about two or three years after the final s-3 patch. What happens then?

Well I guess as long as the devs keep selling the product, they'll keep providing the services...

Nostradamus has writen something about it but i dont remember ...

Quote from ldriver :

Nostradamus has writen something about it but i dont remember ...

That S3 is a hoax?

Quote from ldriver :

Nostradamus has writen something about it but i dont remember ...

"And a driving game will be created by three subjects that will shock the world"

A team of three could probably release meaningful but small updated every month if it was the sole purpose of their life.

But since it probably isn't, be happy with whatever you can get. The current version is very playable so there shouldn't be too many reasons to whine about it.

Quote from BullHorn :

A team of three could probably release meaningful but small updated every month if it was the sole purpose of their life.

But since it probably isn't, be happy with whatever you can get. The current version is very playable so there shouldn't be too many reasons to whine about it.

You have just proven, that with a postcount of 99, you dont know nothing about LFS and your opinion is worthless ( ).

It's their main job, no other job there, so it is kind of the sole purpose...

Anyway, the further LFS goes on, the smaller the developmentsteps get, as the work on the small steps grow a lot more.

Quote from Vykos69 :

Anyway, the further LFS goes on, the smaller the developmentsteps get, as the work on the small steps grow a lot more.

That doesn't have to be true at all.

It should take the same amount of time to add feature X at almost any stage of development. Granted, there may be the odd thing that would take longer later on because it relies on many things that were not previously present; but on the whole that statement really isn't true most of the time.

Quote from Vykos69 :

You have just proven, that with a postcount of 99, you dont know nothing about LFS and your opinion is worthless ( ).

It's their main job, no other job there, so it is kind of the sole purpose...

Anyway, the further LFS goes on, the smaller the developmentsteps get, as the work on the small steps grow a lot more.

Even though it's the 'sole purpose' in their life, they aren't very active about it. I know a dev team of 2 people who work faster than that and they do it as a hobby (For now, who knows what happens when the project is done).

When I have a 'sole purpose', I probably do it 8-10 hours nonstop everyday. ;/

But you have no idea how active they are, so it makes no sense to say they are not active. Because you don't see changes every day, you think nothing is being done? If that is your belief, it's based on an opinion with nothing by way of facts to back it up. You can have an opinion, naturally, but please spare us from stating it as fact. Not least because some people around here have more facts about LFS development than you have opinions, and their view differs from yours.

Quote from BullHorn :

I know a dev team of 2 people who work faster than that and they do it as a hobby.

Do you have any idea how complex the stuff Scawen is working on right now is? I mean seriously, the man's trying to teach computers how to drive cars. You don't just hack that togheter over a weekend.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

That doesn't have to be true at all.

It should take the same amount of time to add feature X at almost any stage of development. Granted, there may be the odd thing that would take longer later on because it relies on many things that were not previously present; but on the whole that statement really isn't true most of the time.

Might be true, if adding a feature X. But as far as we know, he isn't adding feature X, but trying to improve on feature D and H, which we have had for a very long time, but hasn't been quite right. I would think that improving on a current feature is significantly more difficult and takes more time than just coming up with and coding a new feature.

That is where LFS is at the moment. Small features are being put in, but it's the AI, collision detection, damage model, etc, stuff we already have, that I assume is currently at the top of the pile at this stage.

I think new feature development times are geting longer. When more physics are added, it takes longer to implement them because many of the physical effects are connected to each other somehow. For example when adding snow road surface, all the tires have to be adjusted to work on that. When snow tires are added, they have to be adjusted to work on dry tarmac and other surfaces also. So the work is geting harder all the time something is added. Or at least I think so, because that's how things usually work with software development.

Software development on products for sale is much, much different than for some personal home project... even if the intent is to eventually sell it. Testing, code reviews, code design for maintainability, etc, all plays a roll in how long something takes.

Software development is tricky stuff. Somethings that seem incredibly complex to us, might be a very straight forward mathematical problem to a computer. Other things, which seem straight forward and simple to humans, are virtually impossible to do with a computer. It all just depends.

mrodgers, sometimes you are correct, editing and updating legacy code can take longer to do at times. But this is only if that code is part of supporting classes and data structures that are used in other parts of the program that are not being changed. Then you have to work around existing structures to get done what you need to do all the while trying not to break the other code. Sometimes it is easier to just write stuff from scratch. However, most of the time, it is the ground work that takes the time. The final implementation is fairly straight forward.

Something like getting the AI to be intelligent can be more difficult than what we would think it should be. Software does not make rational decisions and it cannot change once compiled. To make something react in a rational manner in software is quite a trick. I will be very interested to see what Scawen comes up with. Even with the restricted "rules" inside the sim, it will still be a big challenge.

Don't think to yourself that any of this is easy. People have been trying to create tire simulators for years and have only gotten them to partially work. The big question becomes "how do you test it?". There is some math that will help, but in the end, it all comes down to feel. Does it feel right? Does it behave correctly in all situations? How do you quantify that feedback and how do you turn it into verifiable computer code? Not easy stuff to do.

When I ask for a time estimate from my Engineers, I get a guess. "It will take what it takes" is the answer I get most of the time. This is because that software development can still be more of an art form than a science at times.

I think if Scavier are working in LFS, they may have too much work to do instead of losing their time in forum chat or releasing little test patches...

Physics is not a easy thing to develop, and to update the artwork of the cars and tracks is not less hard-working. If, of course, they are working in such things...

S2 is a huge step forward related to S1, and it is not ready yet. Let's wait. After NKP I completely lose my sense of hurry

Quote from Speed Soro :

...and it is not ready yet. Let's wait. After NKP I completely lose my sense of hurry

Thats quite a remarkable statement from you