Please post any objections to on-track conduct or administrative rulings here in the following format;

Quote :

Car Numbers:
Lap/Time:
Description of incident or video link:

Full replay to be found here

1.
Car Numbers: #23
Lap/Time: 23 mins left of qualifying
Description of incident or video link: chatting: " ... " while ignoring a blue flag.
2.
Car Numbers: #23
Lap/Time: 2.40 mins race session
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter last sector / no 2 car length
3.
Car Numbers: #23 / #1 (See attached file and race replay)
Lap/time: 45 mins race session.
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter / no 2 car length at some point last sector

4.

Car Numbers: #05 <--------------- EDIT: DBA´s car has No. #12 and not #5 as I posted before.Lap/Time: 1hour 11.mins Race session
Description of incident or video link: diregarding blue flag to TDRT #21.

Since the DT was not assested to the #23 for Quali chatting there is still a penalty due.
The only penalty for DT on the #23 car was for an in race chat on lap #4.

i didn't actually spot that, i was busy typing the stuff for other people. I wont have time to do the objections today and possibly not tomorrow either.

Your screenshot attachment shows the 08, not the 23. Furthermore, I have no idea what it's supposed to prove.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Your screenshot attachment shows the 08, not the 23. Furthermore, I have no idea what it's supposed to prove.

The pic. shows 5 cars at SC not keeping 2 car length. Easy as it is.
But:
In case you don´t see anything at the picture you just ignore it.
Or put it in this way:
It´s a simle add-on.

My complaints No.1 to 4 are like the IGCT rules demand clear listed as:

Car Numbers:
Lap/Time:
Description of incident or video link:

Regards TDRT R.Kolz

Anyhow, our rebuttal:

Quote from R.Kolz :

1.
Car Numbers: #23
Lap/Time: 23 mins left of qualifying
Description of incident or video link: chatting: " ... " while ignoring a blue flag.

Chat is undeniable. Guilty as charged.

Ignoring a blue flag, however, is untrue. I went to the outside of the corner to let you through and you ran wide and rammed into me. That's when I did the "..."

Quote :

2.
Car Numbers: #23
Lap/Time: 2.40 mins race session
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter last sector / no 2 car length

BigTime was indeed off the limiter until the first few cars got onto the main straight. He did, however, engage the limiter prior to the green flag and stayed on it until the green flag was given.

Quote :

3.
Car Numbers: #23 / #1 (See attached file and race replay)
Lap/time: 45 mins race session.
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter / no 2 car length at some point last sector

The 3, the 15, and the 23 all had the limiter off for at least a few seconds after the sector line, however by the time Benji warned the 3 to engage the limiter, the 23 had its limiter engaged and did not disengage it until the green was given. I did not see the 1 without its limiter on. I'd add that since the admin command to engage limiters is not visible in the replay it's hard to determine how tardy these cars were.

(As a side note, the 13 (leader) was doing some weird braking stuff while on the limiter ahead of the 1. Not sure what that was about.)



NOTE: of course, I will not be involved in any protest decisions regarding CoRe cars.

Quote from R.Kolz :

The pic. shows 5 cars at SC not keeping 2 car length. Easy as it is.

Understood. You should understand however, that the 2 car-length rule is a guideline and not something that is normally penalized. Furthermore, that location is quite far from the start of the lap (restart/start of the race) and likely happened while the field was still accordioning/sorting itself out. It's not really relevant.

I will not contest any protest because they will not effect the out come of our season finishing position. However I do want to make clear that in no way did we gain any advantage from the pit limiter protest.

Chose a bit of a corner to show the 2 car gap but DWB has already answered that. Can you give your video's in real time please, not fast forward.

I have to protest against Rudy Kolz, not following this rule :

2.2) When being lapped, a driver is expected to drive a normal racing line and avoid erratic movements that may confuse lapping drivers. If a driver wishes to pull over and slow to let the leader pass, this should be done on a long straight and done in such a manner that the intent is clear to the lapping driver. Under no circumstances should a driver being lapped slow excessively while entering or in the middle of a corner.

Rudy hit me, in a corner, in an insane manouver. This kind of treating the blue flag rule, must be punished hard, in my humble oppinion.

I first did not find it plausible to make a protest, because Rudy´s team and mine, didn`t finish the race. I now see how he pinpoints the rules, and another team accuses him for the same thing. Hitting them in a corner, with "blue flag status".

In danish we have a saying : "Don`t throw with stones, if you, yourself live in a glasshouse" I know Rudy loves this kind of stuff, therefore I said it. We have a discussion on the danish forum, where he mentioned something about complaing about me !?

This is the only incident I have with the TDRT team and Rudy Kolz, so he must mean this situation. I hope your judgement can learn him how to obey the rules, so we can have fair racing the next time we meet.

http://www.forum.lfs-dba.dk/at ... ntid=571&d=1193005475

I enclose this pictureset, for you to see. I did not get the best quality, because i have no good pictureeditor on this machine. But you can wind the replay to lap 35 and look for yourselves, if the pictures isn`t good enough.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

I'd add that since the admin command to engage limiters is not visible in the replay it's hard to determine how tardy these cars were.

Might I suggest the use of Race Control Messages accross the middle of the screen to show green, yellow, and pit limiter commands.

Using the scripting is a way that can help the admins do this quickly. A script that with a single button push, sets and displays the race control message, and another button push clears the message and resets the script for the next time it's needed.

My apologies if this suggestion is in the wrong place, as this is a protest thread.

Allan, we can't see those pictures (have to be logged in on your forums). Can you post them here?

Its lousy pictures, but I had to run replay twice, which takes half an hour to complte. Else wind replay yourself.

The last three

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

BigTime was indeed off the limiter until the first few cars got onto the main straight. He did, however, engage the limiter prior to the green flag and stayed on it until the green flag was given.

OH yes ... he was on the limiter for all of 3 seconds before the green came out. The first 6 laps of BigTimes drive was both impressive (He is very fast) and saddening. Bumping the 25 car off the track in a sharp defensive maneuver (Lap 6) when he could have already entered the pits to serve his DT penalty. Maybe he was waiting for a Safety Car to come out for his DT.

Quote from nmanley :

OH yes ... he was on the limiter for all of 3 seconds before the green came out.

Nevertheless, he was on it, at the same speed as everyone else. This means he wasn't able to spool up his turbo and didn't get any advantage from the time he was off the limiter.

If the penalty is given for being off of the limiter prior to that, that's fine. Can't argue with the evidence. I'm just saying he didn't gain anything from it.

Quote :

The first 6 laps of BigTimes drive was both impressive (He is very fast) and saddening. Bumping the 25 car off the track in a sharp defensive maneuver (Lap 6) when he could have already entered the pits to serve his DT penalty. Maybe he was waiting for a Safety Car to come out for his DT.

As has been previously mentioned in the race discussion thread, it was not a defensive maneuver. It was a bit of the old lead foot syndrome that got the car slightly sideways coming off the corner. Add a little lag to the mix and you have a more explosive bit of contact than it should have been. An unfortunate incident, to be sure, but nothing intentional.

I realize you're upset about the SC (I've read your boards--hope Stu meant IGTC when he said LOTA), but let's not make a conspiracy theory out of it.

I very glad you read our board as I wanted all of those involved to know how I feel.
Can't speak for Stu but he was the one who worked and carried the team thru the year.

The professionalism of this series has for the most part been very good. Most decisions are made very well.

Remember LOTF is a team of older guys. Investigations are not something I do or take lightly.
The facts as Appie stated on our forum do not support Benji's reasoning for a safety car. BT's right rear looked worse than his Left front at the time of the incident.
BigTime enter the pits 2:07 after the start of his previous lap and he ran slower than he could have with the full course caution. 2:07 is 113% within the race lap average. Hardly a moving road block.

It is what it is and we do not expect a penalty for the safety car. No way to be fair about it anyway.

What we do not what is the safety car deployment to be a problem in the future. Maybe do away with it completely.

The safety car causes to much problems in real races with finishing orders but they are a necessary thing when peoples lives are at stake. We race a damn simulator. NO SAFETY CAR NEEDED!

Quote from nmanley :

The facts as Appie stated on our forum do not support the reasoning for a safety car. BT's right rear looked worse than his Left front at the time of the incident.
BigTime enter the pits 2:07 after the start of his previous lap and he ran slower than he could have with the full course caution. 2:07 is 113% within the race lap average. Hardly a moving road block.

If you took the time to figure that out, I'm sure you also realized that Benji couldn't have known what sort of lap time Nolan could run at the time he threw the yellow (only a few corners into the lap). It was a decision made at a split second. It's easy to say in retrospect that he made a decent lap out of it.

Quote :

What we do not what is the safety car deployment to be a problem in the future. Maybe do away with it completely.

The safety car causes to much problems in real races with finishing orders but they are a necessary thing when peoples lives are at stake. We race a damn simulator. NO SAFETY CAR NEEDED!

The safety car will not be done away with. It is our intent with IGTC to create a league that is similar in many respects to the ALMS style of endurance racing, and SC periods are a big part of that format.

We will, as has been stated, clarify in the rules what sorts of incidents are grounds for SC periods, and where officials have room for judgment calls.

Quote from nmanley :

The facts as Appie stated on our forum do not support the reasoning for a safety car.

Not sure what 'facts' you're talking about. I merely gave a description about what happened, which is nothing different from what is stated here by Benji en DWB: I saw Bigtime getting a flat in T1, I notified Benji, Benji made the call to send out the SC and there I went.
What I see here is a discussion about the reasoning of sending out the SC (which Benji described here) and has nothing to do with my description of how it went.

Please refrain from altering my words or putting them in a different context as a support for any conspiracy making. If I have something to say, I'll say it myself. Thank you.

I would not have to add the latter, but apparently you guys removed my access to that topic so I cannot clarify things myself but instead you guys are placing my description in wrong context on a public forum. I personally did not expect this from a team with older guys...

Quote from nmanley :

The safety car causes to much problems in real races with finishing orders but they are a necessary thing when peoples lives are at stake. We race a damn simulator. NO SAFETY CAR NEEDED!

From what I have understand the goal of this league was to get as close to reality as possible.

First of all the thread was moved to a part of our forum for which you do not have access. You were not removed from the thread, the thread was removed from the public. Furthermore, it was moved because people have decided to drag conversations from our forum into this forum. If you have a problem there then talk about it there.

Quote from nmanley :

I very glad you read our board as I wanted all of those involved to know how I feel.
Can't speak for Stu but he was the one who worked and carried the team thru the year.

The professionalism of this series has for the most part been very good. Most decisions are made very well.

Remember LOTF is a team of older guys. Investigations are not something I do or take lightly.
The facts as Appie stated on our forum do not support Benji's reasoning for a safety car. BT's right rear looked worse than his Left front at the time of the incident.

What we do not what is the safety car deployment to be a problem in the future. Maybe do away with it completely.

I don't know where you got that because nether of my rear tires looked as bad as the fronts... Thats just due to the way that setup was working.

I personally feel we need to throw more safety cars for more incidents around the track. Take for instance in the event of a roll over. I think the full course yellow should be thrown immediately, just as it would in real life. After all it's called Sim-Racing, not play around and half way enforce real life rules... Besides if one of us can't properly run around the track with the rev limiter off under a safely period then I don't think that person is a high enough quality driver to run in league races. The rev limiters are necessary on a league racing format, but then again I don't think so. It really all depends who is driving at what time. I will for sure turn the rev limiter on from now on though.

Also I have a 3 lap buffer from the time I receive a penalty to the time I have to come in and serve it. Regardless of the reason thats a well known rule that all drivers can use at their on digression.

Continue investigating and have fun, see you on LOTA.

LOL,

I know old.

Stu isn't old.

I'd give my left nut to be his age!

LOTF guys, don't post here if your BP is > 140/90!

Quote from BigTime :

I personally feel we need to throw more safety cars for more incidents around the track. Take for instance in the event of a roll over. I think the full course yellow should be thrown immediately, just as it would in real life. After all it's called Sim-Racing, not play around and half way enforce real life rules... Besides if one of us can't properly run around the track with the rev limiter off under a safely period then I don't think that person is a high enough quality driver to run in league races. The rev limiters are necessary on a league racing format, but then again I don't think so. It really all depends who is driving at what time. I will for sure turn the rev limiter on from now on though.

Also I have a 3 lap buffer from the time I receive a penalty to the time I have to come in and serve it. Regardless of the reason thats a well known rule that all drivers can use at their on digression.

Continue investigating and have fun, see you on LOTA.

I agree with your assesment based on DWB's explination of why the series uses the Safety car.
Although if we could all start with our bumpers touching there would be no problem with limiter rulings.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

You should understand however, that the 2 car-length rule is a guideline and not something that is normally penalized.

I´m sorry to tell you but this is in my oppinion one of your worse statements ever made.

I will try to explain you why.

You´re telling me that the "2 car-length rule" is a guideline and not a rule.

Then you as a IGTC admin might consider to update your IGTC homepage and add a sub-section called "Guidelines"

Pls. let me explain some of my preparation for an IGTC race.

a) I visit the official homepage for the IGTC races:
http://www.igtc.co.nr/

b) I point my mouse on the term " RULES ".

c) I read these rules og the IGTC and understand that me and my teammates will have to follow them during the actual IGTC race.

d) As of the "2 car length rule" I find something in the official IGTC rules set. Here:

RULES:
E. RACE START CONDUCT:
1) Races are started behind a safety car (hereafter SC), driven at pit limiter speed, in single file. All drivers must leave a gap of at least two (2) car-lengths to the car ahead during the parade lap.
1.1) During the parade lap, all drivers must drive respectfully and with control. Pit limiters are not required until the final sector of the parade lap, at which time race control will instruct drivers to stabilize the two car-length gap to the car ahead and engage their limiters. Any driver caught driving with pit limiter disengaged after this point will be subject to a DT.

e) I take this as a rule.Full stop. At no point I will treat this as a just a guideline or something which is allowed to be interpretated at a later stage. And nor/neighter will my teammates do, I hope
Not sure they will follow this rule as of some tactical race reasons but if caught they will not be able to blaim anybody but themselves.

I will attach a file referring my objection 2 made in this thread. Later on I will make my points of objection 1,3 and 4 even more clear to help your decision finding.

Sidenote: I´m aware of that it looks like I´m shooting at the CORE team but let me asure you that this is not the case and I wouldn´t have any motivation to do so. I know the CORE racing only as very fair and competative team and so far I never had to complain about the above.

See att. file regarding my objection 2.

Regards
[TDRT] R.Kolz