"Quote:
Originally Posted by R.Kolz
1.
Car Numbers: #23
Lap/Time: 23 mins left of qualifying
Description of incident or video link: chatting: " ... " while ignoring a blue flag."

Originally Posted by DeadWolfBones
"Chat is undeniable. Guilty as charged."

Thank you that we can agree on this one.
--------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by DeadWolfBones:
"Ignoring a blue flag, however, is untrue."

I have understood that you disagree on this matter but please let us just forget about you beeing blue flagged as it actually isn´t subject of objection 1. I shouldn´t have posted it at all. Sorry for that.

Regards
[TDRT] R.Kolz

Moved To Suggestion Forum

I'd like to say I'm with Koltz on this.
The 2 car lenght distance is something I took serious from my own point of view ( meaning my car ) and I really concentrated trying to do it right.
I had Koltz behind me on parade lap and he acted accordingly. The fact that he overtook me right after start, is due to his eminent driving, so when others try to get around the 'rule' and gain from it, I get annoyed.
But I'm cool now. Just needed to point out it's not a good idea to degrade the 'rule' to a 'guide-line' after the race.

Just for clarification, The 2 car rule is for when your NOT on your pit limiters. As soon as the "Fall in line, Pit limiters on" message is displayed your supposed to fall in line, bunch up and activate pit limiters, thus 2 cars is no longer in force. You can try to bunch up by de-activating the pit limiter BRIEFLY however.

Secondly DWB is not responsible for incidents involving CoRe cars so the conspiracy etc is against me here. I agree i may have made the wrong decision but we are all human and we all make mistakes. I accept my mistake, learn from it and leave it where it was. Please dont argue on the forums in this thread, it is for posting objections not conspiracies and arguments.

Any idea when these objections will be completed? The series has ended, and I think it's time to get these objections complete so we can move on to off season discussions about what we would like to see changed and/or improved.

I've only participated on a limited basis, but what I have seen so far, I'm encouraged that this can be a solid, long-running league for LFS. Most leagues have races that are 1 hour in length, which is fine. MOE has 6 hours minimum (and up to 24), so the 4 hour length in IGTC feels pretty good for endurance racing.

Should be done today.

Secondly my post above as a reply to John Holme is wrong, you are meant to keep the 2 car gap when on pit limiters.

Quote from banshee56 :

Any idea when these objections will be completed? The series has ended, and I think it's time to get these objections complete... (snip)

Excuse me but for me this IGTC series will be over when we have the official round 8 race results and the official overall standings as well.
We don´t have them yet.

Even that I can see that CORE really are some fast celebraters...

The XRR position was locked out before we came to this race and the FZR has an extra lap buffer with no complaints about it. The likelihood of that position being changed is astronomically low. Besides it just being weird to go back and take that pic once all the objections are done.

I was simply asking because it appears that everyone outside the series admins seem to be discussing the interpretation of the rules relative to these particular protests.

Yes, there is a mention in the "Rules" about a 2-car gap during a parade lap. Nowhere does it mention that there is a penalty for not holding a 2-car gap during a parade lap.

Quote :

1.1) During the parade lap, all drivers must drive respectfully and with control. Pit limiters are not required until the final sector of the parade lap, at which time race control will instruct drivers to stabilize the two car-length gap to the car ahead and engage their limiters. Any driver caught driving with pit limiter disengaged after this point will be subject to a DT.

1.2) In the event that the field is unevenly spaced as it approaches the green flag, the marshals may instruct drivers to close up to or back off from the car ahead. Once pit limiters are engaged, drivers should not release them unless otherwise instructed.

We were told over Ventrilo by Benji, that we could disengage the Pit Limiters if we needed to regulate the gap. You can put two cars in a line in the same gear and with the pit limiters on, and a constant gap will NOT be held, simply because of different gearing in the cars (yes, this can make a fractional speed difference), corners, and reactions to maneuvers taken by other drivers ahead or behind.

And about celebrating early....the outcome of these objections on the 23 car will have no bearing on the final standings, as the 23 car was 10 points ahead coming into the race, and had more wins than the only car that had a chance to tie, the LOTF #1 team, thus mathematically making them the undisputable champions. Yes, we were excited about winning the IGTC title, and we won't apologize for that excitement.

Quote from R.Kolz :

I´m sorry to tell you but this is in my oppinion one of your worse statements ever made *snip*

I understand the reasons that you're upset. However:

1) There is no way to accurately measure how far apart two cars are on the track. It's easy to estimate, but not something that we can really pinpoint. (Can't take a measuring stick out onto the track.) Therefore...

2) There is no penalty assigned to a violation of the 2 car-length rule.

Aka, it is a guideline.

We put it in the rules to scare people into following it.

Never really expected anyone (especially someone who was not directly involved in the alleged violation) to protest it.

The wording will be changed for next season in order to make this more clear, assuming we still have limiter/spacing rules for next season. Maybe everyone will be courteous enough by that point that we won't need them?

Quote from AppiePils :

From what I have understand the goal of this league was to get as close to reality as possible.

Yes and I can't remember an endurance road race where the Safety Car has been used because just and only one of the cars had a simple puncture.

Even in F1, I remember Mansell, Senna and Schumacher who were able to join the pits on three wheels after losing one wheel, and there was no Safety Car at all, even in Monaco which is obviously not the widest track in the world.

Quote from Lotesdelere :

Yes and I can't remember an endurance road race where the Safety Car has been used because just and only one of the cars had a simple puncture.

Even in F1, I remember Mansell, Senna and Schumacher who were able to join the pits on three wheels after losing one wheel, and there was no Safety Car at all, even in Monaco which is obviously not the widest track in the world.

As i said, my mistake, live and let die.

Objection 3.
Car Numbers: #23 / #1.
Lap/time: 45 mins race session.
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter / no 2 car length at some point last sector.

I´d like to encourage you to watch the replay.It´s pretty self-explanatory and my motivation on objection 3 was because of the illigeal driving of car #23 ( gaining 2 positions) and #1 ( gaining 1 position) they violated the officilal IGTC rules. Furthermore it´s to see what advantage the slipstreaming of the leading cars give you but not the 6th and worse positioned racers on the track as they don´t violate this rule - which status now has changed to be a " Guideline" only.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kI5jH4X-w1g

Originally Posted by DeadWolfBones, 21.14:
(As a side note, the 13 (leader) was doing some weird braking stuff while on the limiter ahead of the 1. Not sure what that was about.)

That´s mayby why you introduced the "2 car length" rule?

Quote from R.Kolz :

Objection 3.
Car Numbers: #23 / #1.
Lap/time: 45 mins race session.
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter / no 2 car length at some point last sector.

I´d like to encourage you to watch the replay.It´s pretty self-explanatory and my motivation on objection 3 was because of the illigeal driving of car #23 ( gaining 2 positions) and #1 ( gaining 1 position) they violated the officilal IGTC rules. Furthermore it´s to see what advantage the slipstreaming of the leading cars give you but not the 6th and worse positioned racers on the track as they don´t violate this rule - which status now has changed to be a " Guideline" only.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kI5jH4X-w1g

Originally Posted by DeadWolfBones, 21.14:
(As a side note, the 13 (leader) was doing some weird braking stuff while on the limiter ahead of the 1. Not sure what that was about.)

That´s mayby why you introduced the "2 car length" rule?

AGAIN, that's the 08 CoRe car (FZR) in your replay, not the 23.

Furthermore, I don't see anything wrong there. They were more bunched up than they should have been due to the 13 car (leader) tapping his brakes and dropping below pit limiter speed. When the green flag came out, the 01 and 08 got better starts and got around the guys in front of them. This is purely down to reaction time--there is no effective slipstream effect at that kind of speed.

ETA: furthermore, the FZR already has a superior rolling start to all the other models.

Originally Posted by DeadWolfBones:

"I understand the reasons that you're upset. However:
1) There is no way to accurately measure how far apart two cars are on the track. It's easy to estimate, but not something that we can really pinpoint. (Can't take a measuring stick out onto the track.) Therefore...
2) There is no penalty assigned to a violation of the 2 car-length rule.Aka, it is a guideline.
We put it in the rules to scare people into following it. :-D
Never really expected anyone (especially someone who was not directly involved in the alleged violation) to protest it.
The wording will be changed for next season in order to make this more clear, assuming we still have limiter/spacing rules for next season. Maybe everyone will be courteous enough by that point that we won't need them?"

Ok,this IGTC series has in my oppinion been some of the best racing I´ve ever had in my short LFS live, admitted.
Why I posted the objections 1-4? Well, because none of the other involved drivers did as of (1-3). Easy as it is.
Objection 4 I did as it wasn´t the first time I have had contact with a DBA guy at the IGTC rounds. But this one about round 8 will you guys decide but for sure it will be contunued on our danish LFS forum.

And as of your point 1):
Why did you introduce this rule when you are aware of that you can´t measure it? Never the less - I dont even need my glasses to be able to see what´s going on after about 45 mins. of the race right before the green flag was waved once again. It´s on youtube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kI5jH4X-w1g


Objection 3 is about PL >and< 2 car length involving CORE Car #08 and Car #1 at race position 2 and 4 on the youtube video.
Thank you for pointing this out once more. I finally realized it. ;-)

As of your point 2) :

One <B>very strainge</B> headline:

"There is no penalty assigned to a violation of the 2 car-length rule."

Aka, it is a guideline.We put it in the rules to scare people into following it."

Go through you ruleset and find out that about every rule you have there is no description of punishement attached to it.

Want to have an example? Here we go.

SKINNING AND DRIVER NAMING for example. Thousand of other examples to be found.

Where does it say you get a penalty when name/racenumber/skin are not in IGTC-rules order? Nowhere. Your point 2 doesn´t make any sense at all. Let´s for a moment stay at this matter. Drivernaming. Well, TDRT has been there - done that.
See att. file.

This is my very last post in this objection thread. I think I made my point clear.

A serious race league needs some serious rules and I still believe this season, with all of it´s comments is helpful to arcieve an even better IGTC round 2.

Thanks to you guys I´m right now having these discussions. Without you guys there wouldn´t be any IGTC at all.

Regards
[TRDT] R.Kolz

LOTF #1 response:

As mentioned, the lead 13 car was acting strangely, braking while under the limiter.
Upon Green Flag message, I released the limiter.

A by-product of having a Normally Aspirated motor is the absense of lag. The FZRs always gain a large amount of time on starts/restarts as such. This is part of the considerations needing to be taken in account when choosing your vehicle (FZR, FXR, or XRR) in preperation for the season.

Quote from R.Kolz :

Ok, I got your and Benji´s point. Pls. don´t make me loose al respect to you guys or this IGTC series, which in my oppinion has been some of the best racing I´ve ever had.

Thank you, it'd been our pleasure to facilitate it.

Quote :

Why I posted the objections 1-4?
Well, because none of the other involved drivers did (1-3). Easy as it is.

While I appreciate your efforts to police the driving in the series, this is not what the protest system was intended for. In the future, there will be a clause written into the rules that will allow drivers to submit protests only for incidents that directly affect their team. It is the admins' job to police driving in the series, not the drivers'.

Quote :

And as of your point 1): Why did you introduce this rule when you are aware of that you can´t measure it? Never the less - I dont even need my glasses to be able to see what´s going on after about 45 mins. of the race right before the green flag was waved once again. It´s on youtube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kI5jH4X-w1g

Objection 3 is about PL and 2 car length involving Car #23 and Car #1 at race position 2 and 4 on the youtube video.

This has been addressed in my above post.

Quote :

As of your point 2) :

One very ridiculous headline:

2) There is no penalty assigned to a violation of the 2 car-length rule.
Aka, it is a guideline.We put it in the rules to scare people into following it.

Go through you ruleset and find out that on about every rule you have- there is no punishement attached to it.

This is a gross exaggeration.

Quote :

Want to have an example? Here we go .
C. SKINNING AND DRIVER NAMING
where does it say you get race deceicive punished when not in IGTC-rules order?

Well, been there done that. See att. file.

Agreed, that is an oversight in the way the rules are written. It will be corrected in preparation for season 2.

Quote from R.Kolz :

And as of your point 1): Why did you introduce this rule when you are aware of that you can´t measure it? Never the less - I dont even need my glasses to be able to see what´s going on after about 45 mins. of the race right before the green flag was waved once again. It´s on youtube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kI5jH4X-w1g

Objection 3 is about PL and 2 car length involving Car #23 and Car #1 at race position 2 and 4 on the youtube video.

The pit limiter creep is going to happen, plus the lead car slowed down at the last second, we as a team were doing some running for multiple laps under our pit limiters in identical cars for some video footage and we were constantly adjusting our pace. And then the FZR is just a faster car on a rolling start, 0 turbo lag and no traction issues like off the line.

Quote from R.Kolz :

4.

Car Numbers: #05 <--------------- EDIT: DBA´s car has No. #12 and not #5 as I posted before.Lap/Time: 1hour 11.mins Race session
Description of incident or video link: diregarding blue flag to TDRT #21.

You are in the wrong here. Granted 12 DBA was slow out of the corner however you did nothing as a reaction, you just dived through on corner exit where 12 DBA would not of expected you too. Had your car finished i would of given you an LL penalty, not 12 DBA.

ARG....another post of me.


Pls. read my post #40. I have had problems posting this one.

Post #40 is the "official R.Kolz and latest one" to refer to.

Obj. 4 - Benij, thank´s for your statement on this one. Done.

Regards [TDRT] R.Kolz

Quote from R.Kolz :

Car Numbers: #23 / #1 (See attached file and race replay)
Lap/time: 45 mins race session.
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter / no 2 car length at some point last sector

1 LOTF #1 and 23 CoRe #1 gained no advantage from this however 23 occasionally overtook the car in front and as such has been assessed an LL penalty putting it in 3rd place.

Quote from R.Kolz :

2.
Car Numbers: #23
Lap/Time: 2.40 mins race session
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter last sector / no 2 car length

No advantage was gained and 23 CoRe #1 was on the pit limiter for an acceptable period of time before the green flag.

Quote from R.Kolz :

1.
Car Numbers: #23
Lap/Time: 23 mins left of qualifying
Description of incident or video link: chatting: " ... " while ignoring a blue flag.

23 CoRe #1 is assessed a second LL penalty and dropped to 5th.

15 Unity Receives 30 seconds off of their final race time however this does not affect their final race position of 6th

Quote from BenjiMC :

15 Unity Receives 30 seconds off of their final race time however this does not affect their final race position of 6th

did you remember to compensate the time we lost for taking Drive through for the skin problem, which wasn´t a real skin problem anyway?..because then I think we should be higher up as we had a comfotable 4th place at the disconnect.