Quote from AndroidXP :

I'm happy, because
Life is like this ...

But LFS is like this

hehe, great!

PLAYLIFE :heartbeat:heartbeat:heartbeat :lfs:

(LFS is the only computer game I play... although I would prefer to call it a simulator)

Quote from RichardTowler :

me!

back to the cage!
stop playing with forum police.

Quote from SkyNet :

It's a very good sim, the only thing that's bothering me is the (very, very, very) slow development process. Either work faster or find some more programmers

How about telling us exactly how fast things should be done, if you really know. If you want to make that kind of statement, please take a little time to give us a few examples of some software that's significantly better and developed faster. I guess you may be able to think of some examples. I'm genuinely interested to know who can develop better things at a much higher speed, and how they did it.

I suspect that you are one of those gamers who just want more and more of what you like, faster than possible, and can't understand that good things take time. And just so you know, throwing extra programmers at a project does not result in a better project which is done faster. You can find dozens of posts of mine, trying to explain our philosophy, which we're not going to change. I'm not going to go over it again, you can search for yourself, just click on my name and "find more posts by user" and you'll find the info you need.

I dont want to be picky, or start a flaming/trolling session, and granted that you didnt say its too slow, but that's not answered Scawen's questions. You've pointed out things which are well known. I dont want to be mean, but your points are commonly brought up.

I think something which is taken for granted, is that we (as the community, including the dev's), are assuming that everyone knows that LFS is produced by 3 guys; only one of which is the core game programmer. Recently I've come across a number of racers online, and I recall at least one on the forums in the last few months, who really didnt know this. Perhaps this should be pimped more. I certainly have great respect for the team to drop their jobs and jump onto creating LFS, and a lot of people who find this out appear to come to the same conclusions. Consequentely they understand LFS' development model.

I suppose my rambling point is that perhaps there needs to be a bigger deal made out of the LFS team's history / philosophy, on the official site(s)?

Quote from mrodgers :

The racers are not really LFS's fault, but for LFS, I am unhappy with the tracks and cars. I'm kind of tired of them. I don't like the road cars and don't like the open wheelers. I'd like to see more cars, more selection in the GTR class and another racecar class as well like V8's or something. I know, I know, maybe when S3 is out. I would like to see that though. Same with the tracks. I'm not fond of S1 tracks and think the S2 tracks are great. But would like to see some more.

Thats because the new s2 tracks were built with the faster cars in mind and the s1 tracks siute the slower cars better... try the Lx4 on SO Town, the UF1 on FE Green, the FZ5 on WE1, or the MRT on SO Classic they can be fun combo's... You've just got to match the car you use to the track you race (i.e. don't race UF1 on AS Historic, or FO8 on FE Club )

Working with small size developer teams, made me realize that there is nothing better than being a happy customer of small companies that create the product they believe in AND really listen to your and other customers' feedback. It's the fundament of capitalism I believe in.

That said, to be on topic, I have to say that I'm with LFS since early pre S1 demos (which were absolutely ahead of their time back then and had a lot of charm), but I'm completely disappointed with the current development time. It’s so slow, that I managed to grow up in the meantime.

Quote from Scawen :

How about telling us exactly how fast things should be done, if you really know. If you want to make that kind of statement, please take a little time to give us a few examples of some software that's significantly better and developed faster. I guess you may be able to think of some examples. I'm genuinely interested to know who can develop better things at a much higher speed, and how they did it.

I suspect that you are one of those gamers who just want more and more of what you like, faster than possible, and can't understand that good things take time. And just so you know, throwing extra programmers at a project does not result in a better project which is done faster. You can find dozens of posts of mine, trying to explain our philosophy, which we're not going to change. I'm not going to go over it again, you can search for yourself, just click on my name and "find more posts by user" and you'll find the info you need.

I think that all your CUSTOMERS here appreciate that you went against the flow and decided to devote the few last years of your life to create 2/3 of the most outstanding sim ever, but arguments with the number of programmers that do not have influence on project's time and quality is a complete BS. Sorry. It's what proper project management is for - set small goals for team members along with deadlines and be consistent in achieving them. And there's a myriad of tools to help you with keeping the project on the right track.

I've been a part of several software and web development projects for the past few years and I've seen too many programmers that were too proud to say that they do not know how to do this or that and wasted a lot of precious time to learn something that could be done way faster by somebody more experienced in some specific field... or at least by someone whose time is cheaper then theirs. This applies especially to the outside freelancers that didn't have tight deadlines, so they spent a lot of time on research and were really angry if someone pointed that they do not produce, although it also took some new team members a lot of time to realize that other people on the team are trustworthy too.

Sure that LFS is complicated and I can bet that you think that you're the only person that understands the code, but asking someone to take care of some less important parts doesn't require this person to be as talented as you. It's like with Pareto's principle - 20% of your effort accounts of 80% of value, which in dev's language means do what's important and polish the details later.

You're in a really comfortable position of having a great piece of WORKING code that some niche customers love because it provides an outstanding value to them. If I were you, I'd work on licensing that to other companies to help funding the further development of the engine, maybe by creating a Forza/GT4 killer on top of LFS engine (all sim racers wet dream).

The other option I see is to ask your team members to prepare another, less demanding game using your code - maybe something devoted to rally cross, which you really don't seem to treat in LFS with as much respect as it deserves (it's fun and doesn't require 1337 asphalt skillz) or maybe something WRC related (there's only RBR which is really interesting), although this will require funds and a great dose of marketing skills, to help it be profitable.

The community might call me a troll, a blasphemer or judging by the number of posts below my nick – even a n00b, I don't care since I don't have time to play LFS and it won't really hurt me. All I want to say is - Keep LFS as your favorite firstborn child, but recognize the value of your talent and what you already achieved and make it work for you.

And to be honest - even though people in my part of europe earn on average a couple times less than in other countries, I really wouldn't mind to buy 2-3 games with the LFS' feeling a year instead of paying 1/3rd for one LFS every 2 years. And I don't think I'm alone on that.

Quote from noizz :

I really wouldn't mind to buy 2-3 games with the LFS' feeling a year instead of paying 1/3rd for one LFS every 2 years. And I don't think I'm alone on that.

People who play and understand LFS very much apreciates the process of this sim. I DONT WANT ANOTHER GAME EVERY YEAR!! I don't want to have zilion tracks and cars when there isn't no one online! I want to play with humans, not numbers! I want the best physics out there, and i don't want it FAST! I want it to develop as much as it takes! I don't want pre recorded sound "telling" me that i am driving a car! illepall Don't want anyone luying to me! I don't want to drive "Porsche" just because it looks like a Porshe, i wanna FEEL the car!!
And LFS with it's Alpha stage, 130 mb, "crappy" sound, "crappy" graphics is the only SIM giving me that FEEL!!!

Jeez, another thread (in a long line of threads) that's turned into a "do it faster, I know better" exercise. I guess playing GPL for so long has taught me some sim-patience: the 1965 and 1969 season mods took years to come to a state worthy of release, as does the continuing work on the outstanding Monaco addon. The basic attitude in GPL-land is this: when it's ready, it's ready and when it's ready, you'll be informed. Granted, those GPL addons are free & community-created but that doesn't make them any less important. In fact, that seems to make them more valuable to GPL'ers, because we know the creators are slaving away like it's their job, but they're doing it for love of the game and of the era it represents. The mods I mentioned were SO worth waiting for that noone remarked on how long they took to complete after they were released.
I feel the LFS devs have similar love and passion both for sim and real life racing. Because of that I know that whatever comes next will be worth waiting for because the devs have worked on it and tested it like mad. I also have a sneaking suspicion that they (especially Scawen) are getting fed up with having to justify themselves to every anonymous poster who's ever worked with a computer for a living.

Long story short: there's a life outside my HDD and while I wait for new stuff to download, I go and live it.

Quote from Primaris :

Some faults:
-There is no functional way to "look ahead" ie. look the direction you need to be driving and not the way the car is traveling.

Yes there is: http://torttu.net/temp/lfs/view_settings.jpg

Quote :

-The FF just feels like a very heavy return to center spring.

Turn off centering spring from your wheel's control panel (e.g. Logitech Gaming Software's Profiler program). And reduce FF strenght and then recude it in LFS too. You can use as low FF settings as you prefer.

Quote :

-The AI doesn't drive realistically.

Yes, AI sucks. That's why LFS is online racing simulator.

Quote from Hankstar :

Long story short: there's a life outside my HDD and while I wait for new stuff to download, I go and live it.

Well said

In the mean time we still get to race online in what is already a great racing environment I've had a blast the last two days

Quote from Primaris :

I will only race online with people I know in RL.

You don't know what you're missing, some of the LFS drivers out there are fun to hang out with while driving and messing about on the track. I've made several friends through LFS I can imagine being friends in RL too.

Why in the world to restrict yourself to your RL friends? Being the cynical me, that sounds very anti-social. Not everyone on LFS is an 'internet imbecil' and no doubt some very cool people share the enthusiasm for the game (as well as your other likings).

Yeah, race some people who you dont know. I'll promise not to bite Though seeing now your a demo racer, i guess you dont know what the people in S2 are like.

Quote from Primaris :

Have this implemented but it still doesn't allow you to look ahead. It only follows the steering. Often you need to be steering left but looking a different direction. Or looking right while still steering straight.

In options->controls you can set a control to look right, left and behind. I have mine set to the D-Pad on my DFP.

I dunno I thinhk the game is good enough as it is. Of course it can be better.
But as it is now, it is very much playable and very much fun.
But If you're not having any fun with LFS now, I doubt speeding up the development process any will help much. I mean seriously, Weather effects will get old, Newer cars wont be new for long and for some the physics
will NEVER be good enough.


I'm with Mr Rodgers when it comes to online play, THe pickings are pretty slim for us, but there is still enough decent races during the week and always on the weekend for me not to whine too much about it

Another thing... All these Armchair Generals saying how LFS could be better if they did this, or faster developed if they did that.... why don't they just make their own game?

Also, when you go into a McDonald's you order a burger, it Should be ready in about two minutes...Make that burger at home and it will take longer, but normally taste better

Quote from Racer Y :

Also, when you go into a McDonald's you order a burger, it Should be ready in about two minutes...Make that burger at home and it will take longer, but normally taste better

Oh look, this turned into another thread filled with stupidly long posts that most people cannot be bothered to read about NOTHING that won't change ANYTHING in the way the developers do their job. Do we always have to have one of these threads hovering? The last one disappeared 2 weeks ago (maybe less). There was another one a few weeks before that one... Nobody reads your whole post if its full of BS about why the devs need to change the philosophy that has gotten them to making one of the greatest simulations over the past 3-4 years. You don't seem read (or atleast understand) everyone's whole posts about why the devs won't change the way they do things. It all turns into a flame war and no-one knows what anyone is saying and everyone is just putting in their self-reightious verbal diarrhea, not realising that they won't change anything and things would progress quicker if we didn't have these threads. Can we just cut the crap and let the devs carry on doing their thing - we know it works, and we will get there sooner or later.

well.. i like this game a lot, thats why i play it since 2003.. atm the game is not ready and it have some small things that reallly need to be improved with time... but this is the only game i get a lot fun everyday

@axus: :iagree:

People should stop forcing their "great" business models down the devs throat and instead concentrate on their conspiracy theories of how the devs betray us with the "players online" counter.

Quote from noizz :

You're in a really comfortable position of having a great piece of WORKING code that some niche customers love because it provides an outstanding value to them. If I were you, I'd work on licensing that to other companies to help funding the further development of the engine, maybe by creating a Forza/GT4 killer on top of LFS engine (all sim racers wet dream).


The other option I see is to ask your team members to prepare another, less demanding game using your code - maybe something devoted to rally cross, which you really don't seem to treat in LFS with as much respect as it deserves (it's fun and doesn't require 1337 asphalt skillz) or maybe something WRC related (there's only RBR which is really interesting), although this will require funds and a great dose of marketing skills, to help it be profitable..

No Bloody Way!! This sound more like "Let's milk the cash cow". Whilst I don't want to second guess the Development team, nor would I deny them every success, I feel they want to do this their way, and I think they are doing themselves very proud indeed.

Quote from noizz :

And to be honest - even though people in my part of europe earn on average a couple times less than in other countries, I really wouldn't mind to buy 2-3 games with the LFS' feeling a year instead of paying 1/3rd for one LFS every 2 years. And I don't think I'm alone on that.

You may not be alone, but I get my left nut you are in a very small minority. I want to see nothing from these developers other than the completion of this masterpiece, no matter how long it takes.

Thanks guys. Most people round here like our way of working, and understand that the way we work has some positive effects on the way the sim develops. We accept there are faster ways to make money by employing people, and with sufficiently good management (and some luck) it could possibly be more productive. However, we would then be company directors, instead of what we want to be, which is, a small partnership containing a self employed programmer, a self employed artist and a self employed web guy, working on a racing simulator. We are happy that we are able to work in the way we do - and that is why we are here.

I'll now close this thread because it's getting boring hearing the same discussion repeated over and over, even if it's worded slightly differently on each occasion, and has some different participants.

There is much more detailed discussion here - for people who don't understand our development philosophy, you may read my posts in this thread, along with many other well written posts on both sides of the discussion.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3643

About the "sim racers who want it all and want it now" issue, you may be interested to read Tim Stelten's post over at RSC. Personally i believe this is a problem across the gaming world, not just in sims. Although they are obviously in a minority, there are just too many noisy boys with no patience, so the forums get filled with pointless ranting and arguments. If they know better ways to develop a game so much faster, why not make their own?

http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=236790