Guys we have a problem.


Making sure that we have a reverse grid for the final race is becoming a major PITA.

We have no way of automatically doing it therefore it relys on manual data and then asking people to join in an order.


The problem is, what happens with all the DNF and disco's?

We will never have a sure fire way of gettig the order correct.

I am therefore proposing that we scrap the final race reverse 1-8 grid and thereofre just allow LFS to calculate in what order the final race is started from the previous finishing order.

What this does mean is that people will not be able to rejoin the races after they have crashed out.

or

If they do rejoin from the pits they must not inferfere with ANY races going on.. and ANY blue flag message my be respected within 3 corners (like F1) regardless of other LFS sim BLue flag rules..

This would mean at least that people if they crash can rejoin from the pits and give a larger finishing order that is accurate measured on distance travlled.

I would like to hear everyone's opinions about this topic.


Open until Monday evening to discuss and finalise.

First idea:
after R2 is finished, the order will be adjusted... only the finished racers are involved. In R3 during the first lap, it is allowed to join from pits. After the first racer is in lap two, midrace joins are forbidden.
Second idea:
After R2, the starting order will be fixed... based on the qualifing times, the DNFs are ordered.

IMO we should

a) allow everyone who flipped, timed out or else to immediately rejoin the race. If something happens to more than one racer (which I'm sure will be the case), the rejoiners can still gather points instead of having to wait for the next race to start. Blue flag rules are obvious and must be taken serious by everyone, period.

b)not allow anyone to rejoin. This could lead to many frustrated racers leaving before race 2 maybe. On the other hand people might (!) be more cautious during races and try to avoid crashes.

my suggestion would be a).

greetz

der butz

Hmm, there isnt really a good solution to the problem is there.

If rejoin is disabled, at what point can people then start pitting out? Is it when everyone has finished or as soon as the cars are on the grid?

The problem with allowing people to rejoin after crashing out is that people who screw up (or get screwed) in the opening lap can jump back in and they're instantly ahead of anyone else that crashes out for whatever reason. IMO thats not right, if both cars cant continue racing as they were then allowing one to rejoin and finish ahead of someone else who lost it later on in the race seems wrong, and quite the opposite of how they'd line up IRL as the laps done would be taken into account. Allowing rejoin means someone crashing on lap 1 can do the remaining say 9 laps and finish midway, but someone crashing on lap 8 can only do 2 laps, and cant possibly catch someone that pitted out earlier due to retirement earlier into the race.

With that in mind it seems better to have no rejoin and keep some integrety within the way the cars line up for next race, this goes for race 2 and race 3 as they're effectively in the same boat.


Alternatively, as unrealistic as it is, you allow car reset. Im fairly certain that the mindset of every driver is indifferent to whether its enabled or not, i dont beleive people line up to pass someone and the 2+ people involved think about the fact that no reset is on, and purely because of that back out, but if reset was on they'd say sod it i can always hit spacebar and carry on happy as Larry. Responsible drivers will always pull out of something they know they need to pull out of, and irresponsible drivers will keep their foot planted, the settings on the server wont make a bit of difference IMO.
At least this way everyone finishes, meaning the grid order for the next race is closer to how it should be compared to any other method, there are probably as many positive reasons to allow it as there are negative, it kills a few problems, but also creates a couple minor ones too. But the outlook should be on what provides the best racing and keeps everyone interested. Making people sit our races, especially due to someone elses mistake is going to get boring and frustrating, as will people crashing and sitting in a dangerous location because of LFS refusing to allow the reset as it'd cause a yellow flag! I see South City being the biggest problem for this, Classic's bus-stop chicane in particular.

Quote from Dru :

The problem is, what happens with all the DNF and disco's?

We will never have a sure fire way of gettig the order correct.

As you have a seperate admin on the server you could do it like i did in the GT2 Challenge last tuesday. I did set the cars in the order they dropped out of the race(as you need to reverse the top 8 anyway,its possible). The later, the higher their ranking, while setting up the grid for the last race. I think thats a fair way. Ok, it wasnt a twisty course which much drop-outs. So its maybe harder to do with those UFR and a lot drop-outs, for example at fe club.

This is exactly the problem we WILL have for sure, which is why it needs to be addressed this weekend/mon/tues before the racing starts


Car RESET will NOT be allowed - period, for exactly the reasons you say.

I'm thinking that perhaps a move to be would be...

If you retire you are not allowed to rejoin, however all the non-finishers lineup after the finishers for the next race based on their Qualifying positions, but again this is not perfect... it also does not take into account.

Does anyone actually know how LFS determines the order of people after finishers - is it random or is it to do with when you left the pits?

I don't have the answers DRU. However, I love the idea of reverse grid for race 2. My thought is that if people do finish but are super slow they get to start at the front, no?

if so, and those that didn't finish get to race then they should be first or wherever... doesnt matter.....

The original idea of Qual, Prev Race, Reversed made sense if you really want a reveresed grid start, but having it as the 2nd race makes no sense at all.
Race 1 starts by rewarding those that did well in qualifying
Race 2 rewards those that finished and had a decent race
Race 3 mixes things up a little and makes for an interesting race.

Alternatively:
Race 1 as above
Race 2 says gratz for winning, now start at the back as punishment, those of you who sucked, gratz you can start at the front.
Race 3 rewards anyone that was lucky enough not to be retired out of the race when coming through an entirely backwards grid the previous race.

There needs to be consistancy and fairness to the results in regards to the start orders, reversing a race in the middle completely devalues the acheivement. If 2 & 3 are reversed, then thats actually better, at least theres consistancy in reversing every time.
It might be fun for the folks in the middle of the pack being able to start near the front, but for the folks who would be at the front who end up behind 20 guys who sometimes you wonder if their seeing-eye dog is driving the car for them isnt fun and its quite annoying to be 'rewarded' with having to drive through the chaos those slower folk create when the bottleneck closes in. In normal races the field gets streched out, in reversed races it gets compacted.


Dru, dont know the answer, but i suspect its whatever order they hit 'join' in.
Qualifying order seems about as fair as any other method without someone being there keeping note of every activity. Still doesnt seem entirely fair that someone taken out on the last lap starts behind a pole sitter that rolls it on the first lap etc, but short of the perfect method of it being in the correct order as they retired i dont think there's going to be an ideal solution, its just got to be the best of a crap situation.


Nobo: Thats not a bad idea, but theres the possibility of 2 people retiring at the same time, say from the same incident, who starts ahead of who, the last one to shift+s (a dangerous game to play) or whoever was leading at that time (needs someone knowing what order they were in). Still, so you start 1 position from the place you really should be starting, its not all that bad, theres no feeling of being kicked in the teeth by it, and i think a few of the other simpler options have a hint of that in there.

Hmm i been wondering when this was gonna come out. Because last test race i was puzzeld by it. First 8 were called up on but the rest was randomly set by speed of entering.

I dont think you should alter r1 and r2. Thats is fair. But race 3 i think you should do a little quali. Say 5 min. I still not a fan of those short quali`s but it seems the most fairest way.

After race 2 5 min quali. Then reverse grid from quali. This way if your knocked out in race 1 or 2 you still have a slight change to get some points.

On Thursday there were 12 people who finished the race (11 of which stayed put) so the top 8 were reversed, then 9, 10 & 11 were in finishing order, those afterwards had no way of figuring out who should be next, so it was whatever order you join in. I still moved myself to the back instead of staying 10th or wherever i was.

We need to figure a way of making those none finishers go onto the grid in a position they deserve to be in, without any extra hassle or too much time wasted.
Im wondering if i could use a php script to display who's in the server, have that refresh every say 15sec and put a copy of every name into a database. Each time a name is entered its 'appearance' value goes up (+1), when your name doesnt appear (meaning your not in the race) then your value says as it was (+0).
After a 10 min race those who've completed the race should have 40 appearances, then anyone with <39 would be sorted in order of highest (meaning longest) appearance starts further up the grid than someone with a low number.

You'd use those who finished the race for the grid order as normal, then those who havent finished you'd be able to tell how long they were in the race for by the logger. Its the same sort of thing an inactive admin can do, but this works reasonably well if there isnt someone available to keep note.

I have finally got round to getting this to a test stage - dealing with non finishers will be don ein the next few days.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=33293

nice!

I think suggesting its anything but ideal for the problems the series faces would be a lie, seems capable of doing exactly whats needed.
Out of interest, can you mix n match the modes? Ie use Top-X reversed and also be able to modify that slightly from the in-game screen?
Im just thinking that from qualifying we'd want to start in qualifying order, but anyone caught cheating/cutting would need penalising so being able to drop them say 3 places from where they appear in qualifying order would be perfect.

It's possible to combine them by swithing reverse on and then switching on custom after the grid order has been set which currently is at race restart. It's easy enough to add a *reorder command to allow this to happen before a /restart though.

However currently it's not possible to move a player up or down, only to entirely remove that player from the list. I may enhance the custom list to allow players to be moved up and down.

Stay tuned

OH yes, nice indeed -

Perhaps we should get together monday/tues to see what is possible and practical.

OK,

We have the program to reverse grids or set manual orders, just need volenteers to run it....


so, open house at ZWR server