Quote from marzman :

The S1 streetcars look like old 80's (or early 90's) models. Where there rollcages in all racingcars 17 years ago?

Yes, rollcages have been common place since the early '70s and were certainly mandatory before fire proof overalls, which I guess would have been late '70s.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

FIA approved seats

Are not required for MSA club racing, the Morgan runs on standard road seats with an (optional) head rest mounted on the rollbar. A lot of single seaters (including both the F4 cars IIRC) don't have an approved seat/mold either. Having said that a lot of club racers do have high sided side impact protecting seats, they're a brilliant invention and no joke unlike HANS devices I've seen smashes in club racing where they almost certainly let someone virtually walk away from what would have been serious or fatal neck injuries. Certainly the GTR cars need them and any car that is circuit raced and doesn't need to be practical on the road should really have them.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

3 inches minimum ground clearance for all MSA events I believe.

F4 is 40mm and I don't think the ride height is set by the MSA for all event, or at least it has exceptions because it indirectly affects safety and I'd assume is left to championship rules, whatever the MSA regs state a lot of sports racers are lower than that, whether legally or they're just never checked I don't know.

Quote from dougie-lampkin :

Actually thats a pretty good idea!

Why does (nearly) everyone seem to have a problem with cruise servers? I personally find only racing highly boring, so I switch onto cruise servers every now and then. Yet everyone seems to be flaming cruisers in this thread...We've done nothing wrong by putting a line down the center of a track, and only voiced our opinions by asking that rollcages be made optional (which I still cant see is such a big deal) ane you 24/7 racers had some sort of sissy-fit, saying its not real enough to be made optional, even though in real life it's optional whether you want to race or cruise...

Whats the big problem with "not using LFS for its original intention"? If cruise servers mean more racers join LFS, where's your problem?

TBH this thread is becoming silly, as seen in Gunn's post...

aren't you flaming the racers?
i have nothing against cruisers ,everybody his own, but i don't like it to interfere with my race experience in a race simulation (or race game as you like it)

Quote from ajp71 :

F4 is 40mm and I don't think the ride height is set by the MSA for all event, or at least it has exceptions because it indirectly affects safety and I'd assume is left to championship rules, whatever the MSA regs state a lot of sports racers are lower than that, whether legally or they're just never checked I don't know.

Prestigious championships (BTCC, F3 etc) are allowed to run at whatever ride height they like. Single make club championships (e.g. ClubF3) are also allowed to (providing the ask the MSA). Multi-make championships, like Monoposto, are not granted the waiver.

At least, that's my understanding of it.

Quote from dougie-lampkin :

Actually thats a pretty good idea!

God, I'm on a roll - that's two of my ideas that people have liked!

On the racing/cruising/drifting thing: When someone invented fireworks, they wouldn't have realised that the stuff in them could be used for blowing up stuff (Seasonal reference - 5/11!). In the same way, LFS wasn't designed for drifting/cruising, but its so good at it that people can use it for those purposes too.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Multi-make championships, like Monoposto, are not granted the waiver.

Is it not Monoposto's attempt to bastardise the advantage of carbon tub ground effect racing cars and stop them from necessarily becoming the fastest thing on the grid. I thought that was the reason F4 had a 40mm ride height because obviously if the front runners who poor the money in were running carbon tubs rather than FF2000/Speeds spaceframes the accident repair costs would go through the roof for a club formula.

Not really, I don't think. Whilst the F3 cars would undoubtedly be 3 or 4 seconds per lap quicker at low ride heights, the rule isn't in place to reduce the advantage to better machinery. It's to give everyone a level playing field, apparently, or those who a) don't have a car optimised at low ride heights b) can't afford to replace noses, floors, skids all the time and c) to lower corner speeds throughout.

Obviously some (the flat floor brigade) will be slowed more by it than a non-flat floored/diffuser'd car, but that's not necessarily the point.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

I guess by this logic (that all cars should have rollcages) then all cars should have plumbed in fire extinguishers, timing struts, FIA approved seats and harnesses and the MRT should be banned for not having enough ground clearance.

Absolutley, if the cars are all made GTR spec, so be it, I don't have a problem with that. But I can't see the point in rollcages in all cars when there are much more important graphical changes to be made, eg., better animations, etc.

Quote from swingkid :

aren't you flaming the racers?
i have nothing against cruisers ,everybody his own, but i don't like it to interfere with my race experience in a race simulation (or race game as you like it)

No, apparently you DO have a problem with cruisers. (Sorry, i ain't picking on you, it ain't just you!) Optional rollcages (or better yet - server controlled rollcages) will obviously not interfere with your racing experience, as if you join a race server, all cars will have rollcages.

And no, I never EVER flamed racers, in fact in my posts, I gave them priority, rather than being against the rollcages all together...

i think optional roll cages are extra programming ,inserting cages is far less work (are already in the gt's)
and because the others "don't" compare to rl it shouldn't bother them so why no cages?

read again i don't flame cruisers ( i did read again and you didn't either) ,
maybe only people(cruisers and non cruisers ) who come with silly reasons (in my opinion ) why there want no roll cages
but i would say it was more defending my opinion

i think we both have said enough about our opinions we probably never totally agree
i hope i didn't offend you (i have nothing against you )
i do respect your opinion, just don't agree

Quote from dougie-lampkin :

Absolutley, if the cars are all made GTR spec, so be it, I don't have a problem with that. But I can't see the point in rollcages in all cars when there are much more important graphical changes to be made, eg., better animations, etc.

His point was that all cars should follow an approximation of real life circuit racing rules, hence including the compulsory addition of said items for all LFS cars.

Quote :

No, apparently you DO have a problem with cruisers

I have no issue with people modifying the game play experience with the current product, thankfully I'm not obligated to join servers offering this alternative experience and I think they're a good way to siphon off undesirable characters from race servers.

Quote :

And no, I never EVER flamed racers, in fact in my posts, I gave them priority

But you can't expect the Devs to simply give priority to racers, they are very unlikely to give concessions to those who've modified their product to carry on doing so regardless of whether it affects the gameplay experience or not. A lot of people seem to struggle with why I think LFS presents itself in a rather arcadey way, yes I like the simplicity of the menus, but that doesn't mean it can't be (and isn't) a serious sim and the concept of making a piece of safety equipment that has been standard for decades everywhere is completely ridiculous and far worse than not having them in the first place.

Quote from swingkid :

i think optional roll cages are extra programming ,inserting cages is far less work (are already in the gt's)
and because the others "don't" compare to rl it shouldn't bother them so why no cages?

Huh? Currently the cars have no rollcages, so how is it extra work? If the rollcages were made for all cars (which they should and probably will), Its just the extra half hour involved to make an option in the menu as to rollcages on/off.

Also, I got official stats from CLC - 12,535 registered cruisers (And that's just CLC, theres LTC and TC with big numbers also). So it is way more popular than some of you guys thought.


I really think we should stop also, and let the devs decide what they want to do. Also, I have nothing against you swingkid, but some people (including moderators) seem to flame other racers for their opinions...doesn't seem fair in my book...

Quote from dougie-lampkin :

Also, I got official stats from CLC - 12,535 registered cruisers (And that's just CLC, theres LTC and TC with big numbers also). So it is way more popular than some of you guys thought.

I'm a CLC member, as are probably quite a few racers who despise racing, the 12535 is simply a unique server counter, and given the fuss that is made over the cruise servers a lot of racers (like myself) have probably joined one so it's not really that impressive. Regardless as I've tried to explain to you and so far you seem to have missed you have not bought a cruising game, you've accidentally wondered in here and bought a serious racing simulation so that's where everyone expects it's going to head towards.

Quote from ajp71 :

I'm a CLC member, as are probably quite a few racers who despise racing, the 12535 is simply a unique server counter, and given the fuss that is made over the cruise servers a lot of racers (like myself) have probably joined one so it's not really that impressive. Regardless as I've tried to explain to you and so far you seem to have missed you have not bought a cruising game, you've accidentally wondered in here and bought a serious racing simulation so that's where everyone expects it's going to head towards.

Yet I have no problem with roll cages. I just asked that the existing non-rollcage interiors aren't removed in the patches with the rollcage interiors.

Also, why can't LFS evolve as more than a racing simulator? Its true-to-life physics and what-not make it perfect as a cruising sim. Below are some relevant examples that prove this point:

Example 1: Computers were not originally conceived with games involved. Some of the first computers ever built were used to decipher war messages. Yet here we are playing a race (/cruise ) sim.

Example 2: The internet was invented as a means to network computers, in small groups, to share data. Yet we are racing (and cruising with ) other people through it.

Example 3: The car was never invented to race (or cruise for that matter), but as a means of travel. Yet when some people tried racing cars (albeit at around 10mph back in the 1900's), it worked.

These principles could also apply to LFS. Why restrict it to being only a racing sim, when it works excellently as a cruising game? I'm not saying that it should now be called a cruise simulator, but allowances should be made for cruisers. Why don't you guys have any problems with drifters? LFS is not a "drift simulator" either.

Quote from dougie-lampkin :

Also, why can't LFS evolve as more than a racing simulator?

LFS is a 'serious racing simulator'

Quote from ajp71 :

LFS is a 'serious racing simulator'

It depends what serious means here! It does not necessary mean serious regarding FIA regulations but can mean only serious regarding physics laws!

Victor also says during the SRT interview 2 things:
- Anything on wheel should be simulated
- Large degree of freedom!

Of course it's also subject to interpretation!

edit: nice out of the subject answer, I 'm tired!

Quote from dougie-lampkin :

Why don't you guys have any problems with drifters? LFS is not a "drift simulator" either.

"We" do have problems with drifters, all the time. Most of them are over at www.lfs-torque.net now.

Just look at the number of locked threads where people got personal on their views about whats right.

Perhaps the cruise servers need their own space too.


LFS perfectly simulates the conflict between ricers/drifters/racers/street-racers/oval racers, that's for sure.

But this is coming from one of those annoying gits who thinks anything that isn't rear wheel drive is wrong wheel drive.

Quote from ajp71 :

LFS is a 'serious racing simulator'

I know what it is, that's been mentioned. And I said why does it have to be tied down as that? Why not expand slightly? (It ain't much, nothing needs to be changed)

roll cages like this: http://www.lfsforum.net/attach ... id=30055&d=1178569135
not my work. its photoshoped :P
nice but no thanks.

Quote from dougie-lampkin :

Also, why can't LFS evolve as more than a racing simulator? Its true-to-life physics and what-not make it perfect as a cruising sim. Below are some relevant examples that prove this point....

The reason is because Scawen has a pretty clear vision of what he wants in his "Serious Racing Simulator". I've bolded, italicized, and underlined the important adjective in the software's description for you. Scawen set out to create a racing simulator. That is the focus, that is the goal. Perhaps after all the stuff for racing is finished, he will expand to include stuff for others to make it closer to an all-around driving simulator. But until the racing part is done, there's no point in discussing the rest.

LFS by far has the best driving physics of all motor vehicle games/simulators. Once the racing aspects are finished, I think it would be great that LFS could expand further and be able to do what Test Drive Unlimited attempted, or any of the other driving games out there. But you have to wait until the core items for racing are done.

It would be much easier to code in roll cages in all cars than it would be to code the roll cages plus the option to not have the roll cages. Racing is the focus, thus roll cages should be in. Also rain and wet racing, better damage, better pitting, night, etc, etc need to be implemented in for racing. After all the racing aspects are there, then it wouldn't be a problem adding extra stuff like extra code to have the option not to have roll cages for non-racing gameplay. No problem with that. But racing is the focus and is what everyone is saying no to when you suggest stuff like "make roll cages an option". When LFS is finished for racing, then yes, worry about code for the option.

Quote from mrodgers :

The reason is because Scawen has a pretty clear vision of what he wants in his "Serious Racing Simulator". I've bolded, italicized, and underlined the important adjective in the software's description for you. Scawen set out to create a racing simulator. That is the focus, that is the goal. Perhaps after all the stuff for racing is finished, he will expand to include stuff for others to make it closer to an all-around driving simulator. But until the racing part is done, there's no point in discussing the rest.

LFS by far has the best driving physics of all motor vehicle games/simulators. Once the racing aspects are finished, I think it would be great that LFS could expand further and be able to do what Test Drive Unlimited attempted, or any of the other driving games out there. But you have to wait until the core items for racing are done.

It would be much easier to code in roll cages in all cars than it would be to code the roll cages plus the option to not have the roll cages. Racing is the focus, thus roll cages should be in. Also rain and wet racing, better damage, better pitting, night, etc, etc need to be implemented in for racing. After all the racing aspects are there, then it wouldn't be a problem adding extra stuff like extra code to have the option not to have roll cages for non-racing gameplay. No problem with that. But racing is the focus and is what everyone is saying no to when you suggest stuff like "make roll cages an option". When LFS is finished for racing, then yes, worry about code for the option.

I'm not so sure about that! Adding the roll cage, it is pretty much making a new car for each road cars! The setup option would be only a switch button to move from one car to the other. It would represent what? 3% of the roll cage development time?

To make it works we would need a forced setup option for servers but this option would be very useful by itself anyway.

+1 for rollcages in roadcars, a week ago i was on a trackday were i could join as a passenger (had a blast there), and guess what? normal roadcars from the company were suited with rollcages, cockpits stripped and racerims (no enginetuning or slicks...). But the point is the company CAN'T let ppl drive their cars unless its save enough for the track, but a race in LFS isnt trackday so a BIG PLUS ONE of me

+1
Even drifters want to be safe

Quote from flymike91 :

+1
Even drifters want to be safe

in the real D1 Grand Prix series u probably won't come in without a rollcage

I have to confess - I haven't read the whole topic thoroughly, but one thing about the roll-cages in LFS is NOT right.

It is their construction - LFS developers could use the drawings, which are given from FIA to create new ones for GTR cars.

For example - FXR is an example of how roll-cages should not be mounted. In my opinion, roll cage like this could not ensure safety as well as the one that is used in reality in similar cars. And safety is the most important thing in motorsports. It is even more important than "pedal to the metal", You know.

NOTE: if this was discussed somewhere earlier (I have no time to visit the forum every day) please, pay no attention to my post. Save Your keyboard buttons instead

Sorry, for the doublepost, but I have to say, I strongly agree with HANS in LFS - no matter what car it would be in.

I am sure, that promoting safety in motorsports by developers will not be forgotten

I believe there is a possibility to cooperate with FIA then, which would be a vast benefit for this SIM popularity