Yeah, because you exactly know, how many hours they do work every day on LFS...
You prolly need more posts here to understand this 
Yeah, because you exactly know, how many hours they do work every day on LFS...
You prolly need more posts here to understand this Well, he realised that even in that regard, LfS is best...
I hope you have your eyesight tested regularly.
Never a truer word was said on these forums !
True, in modern programming self modifying code is rare due to performance issues related to instruction pipelining etc. However, it doesn't matter that the underlying machine code does not change, what is important is the higher level data structures and the relationships between them. It is these that represent the real world concepts that are being modeled, and they can and do change dynamically. For a simple (easy to implement on the most basic of systems) yet profound example just look at Craig Reynolds 'boids'
Isn't it amazing how folks just cannot see that. LFS has been and will continue to be groundbreaking and yet so many casual observers suggest that Scavier just don't work hard enough because there isn't a new groundbreaking sim world re-writing update every few weeks LOL.
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I think there is another issue here that is often ignored that results in longer development times and seemingly less significant improvements.
I guess the easiest way to explain it (I've tried and failed before) is to use an analogy.
When your playing LFS and you decide to try a new car and a new track neither of which you have used before, the first lap you do will be your best - even if its REALLY slow.... this is like the first demo release back in 2002.
After a few laps, you start to get some clean laps and your times drop dramatically.... this is like S1.
Next, you move from clean laps to competitive midfield racing - this takes much longer - maybe 50 or even hundreds of laps depending on your skill.... This is like S2 Alpha
Then you start to get close to really fast times - near alien standard. When you get to this stage, it might take weeks or months of effort and thousands of laps just to shave a few 10ths off your lap times - a casual observer would not notice the difference between your previous record and your new one from a replay.... This is the stage LFS is getting near to - as it gets closer to perfection (still a way to go of course), it takes MUCH more time and effort to make even small steps forward.
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Another way to look at it is that each time Scawen works on e.g. the tyre physics, he is not just trying to make a different tyre model, he must make a better one - otherwise it cannot be released! For it to be better than the last one, it's probably going to take longer....
It's not good enough to just put the same time and research effort in as before - the results from that level of effort are already in LFS - each new level requires more complex and more precise work than the last - and more eyewateringly brainshreddingly DIFFICULT
Imagine how much time it takes to test and tweak a tyre model with, say, 10 inter-dependent variables until the response is believable.... Quite a while..
But then think about what happens when you update the model so it has 20 inter-dependent variables AND your users EXPECT it to have a MORE believable response - not enough to be as good as the last - must be better....
Maybe 10 times longer ? maybe more...
So to conclude my rant, Each update takes much more work and, as LFS gets closer to the 'reality' it is trying to simulate, any improvement is going to be less obvious and have less impact on the user.... law of diminishing returns etc.
enough
Col
Why do you worry about that? Then there will come something new. Maybe S4 with the same masterserver, or maybe everyone will be playing Need for Speed Carton.
@Col:
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Who the heck is complaining about tires?
There's 100 things decidedly far LESS complex than tires that could (read: need to) be done, that have never reached the "2002 Demo stage" of your analogy; and therefore using that analogy should be dreadfully quick to do!
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Who the heck is complaining about tires?
There's 100 things decidedly far LESS complex than tires that could (read: need to) be done, that have never reached the "2002 Demo stage" of your analogy; and therefore using that analogy should be dreadfully quick to do!
I guess from the tone of your post you were just being facetious, but here goes anyway
You've been around long enough to know about the LFS dev process... the 'incompatible' updates come in stages along with any physics updates... the compatible stuff came in patch X... so any other stuff I guess has to wait until all the other incompatible stuff currently in development is ready - so no matter how simple or insignificant, incompatible changes cannot be released until the non-simple very significant is ready... (that of course includes any content that may depend on engine code that is not yet in the public release). I imagine that some of the desired updates you refer to will be 'quick to do' - doesn't mean they will be 'quick to public release' though.
I'm sure you will now list a few specific features that have not been included yet that might not be incompatible.... I don't care
cheers
Col
Well, in all honesty, there are zillions of very small features missing from ...well... everything. Lots of small things missing from LFS, lots of small things missing from your TV's remote controller (the wife-brings-you-a-beer-button), lots of small things etc...
Personally it is not the things that are missing - it is the things that are implemented. Not the small things, the big things. I have said it many times and I will repeat: it is not the development speed, it is the things that get developed. For a bigger picture I find it hard to understand why there still isn't rewindable replays, notes-tab in setups and autocross obstacles that actually work.
I guess I would need to be "registered in 2002" to understand the bigger goal.
Personally it is not the things that are missing - it is the things that are implemented. Not the small things, the big things. I have said it many times and I will repeat: it is not the development speed, it is the things that get developed. For a bigger picture I find it hard to understand why there still isn't rewindable replays, notes-tab in setups and autocross obstacles that actually work.
I guess I would need to be "registered in 2002" to understand the bigger goal.
There's no room for sarcasm.. just imagine how much time consuming is to make a software like LFS? Sometimes by doing a skin or some texture work, it can last for days and that is if i have an inspiration and will to do it.. it's not everyday a sunshine day, there are days when you just don't have the will to do anything..
Just imagine how much trial and error Scawen has to do to make satisfiyng results? But yea, it's in our nature to always want more and i'm no different, but i think the main problem of people who start these kind of threads is that they are just not using LFS as it should be used, not exploring it hard enough, and maybe the biggest reason is lack of good online racing...
I was also in that kind of situation, i just didn't like any of the public combos out there, so i made a suggestion on our local forum, to do a different combo race every weekend, so now, i end up having the reason to drive and having people on that combo every day..
People should try organizing similiar thing, if you have a team, or a forum where your LFS countryman go, have a scheduled race every weekend, and you'll have people practing on a server, on a combo that majority voted for, and everyones happy... It's great stuff... otherwise, yea, i would be pretty bored if i had to only rely on public servers racing...
Living happily is all anyone can hope for...
There making it from home and when it suits, i for one cant believe there not making money on it when theres no overheads and only three ppl at the pie (probably only two really).
But back to the topic, its taking too long and there customer base is walking away which is a bloody shame.
Theres a lot of talented people out there , maybe its time for some extra hands?
And you base that on what?
While I can agree with you that some old timers have drifted away, there is still many that are here and active.
Also from my recolections LFS's user base is stronger than ever. Last nights peek was 1400 racers, back when I joined in 2004 a good night was 700. That tells me while some older ones may get bored an move on there's more than enough new blood to keep things going
No overheads?
Customers walking away?
Extra hands?
You don't get LFS either do you, and you certainly don't 'understand' the developers...
I guess I almost class for an "oldie" and I'm still loving LFS as much as the day I first played. I have in noway become bored. I'm just excited for the next update.
Also I bet as soon as a new update/patch is released the "oldies" that have become bored will come flooding back. It's just human nature, some people get bored quicker than others but as soon as there is something new to try, their back. Thats so true
there is a couple that I bump into on each new major patch release and then never see them inbetween times 
but that's mostly because alot of the original guys don't go on public servers much anymore unless they are testing a new patch Good to hear from some active oldies still enjoying LFS
Heh, I was being semi-facetious. I don't even know myself whether I'm serious or not half the time any more.
Oh yes, I'm fully familiar with it, and for the most part I appreciate it.
This is why the next patch is going to dictate a lot in terms of how much time I spend with LFS over the next year or so. There's a handful of things I won't bother listing (again) that would likely not take much time but would greatly enhance the racing experience, and I think everyone enjoys a good racing experience. Not that LFS doesn't provide that, it certainly does; but there are not enough things to consider and too many ways to exploit the shortcomings. And you were wrong, I can't think of any compatible features I'm on pins & needles for!
Yeah, like Vic says - if you're bored of it you can take a break. Interesting attitude that is; half of my team has taken a break.
For the record as well, the rose coloured glasses about the dev process could use some polishing around here IMO: people need to realize that good support, good product, and constant development are not limited to 3 man dev teams. :rolleyes: Blizzard has hundreds of people working on World of Warcraft and the support and development are every bit as good as LFS. Content and updates are churned out at an alarming rate. It's stable, runs at 80% the FPS of LFS and uses DX9 quite well. Yes, it costs to play, boohoo & big deal. So will iRacing and all indications are that it's going to be incredible (but of course we won't know until it's out, granted).
I still love LFS's physics to death, I still drive sometimes - mostly alone or with a few active teamies. Let's not everyone pretend that it's not dragging on... and on... and on... Originally 4 stages over 1 year, remember?
The only thing that worries me is that Scawen hasn't posted here since the 4th of October.
No worries - it means he's deep into coding and doesn't waste any time posting here
yeah, no signs from scawen is usually a good sign
Wish we could say the same of 3J 
By the way, have you already noticed you can now see the split times of you PB? Sorry if it's old, but I just had to get it out my chest because it's so cool! And is against the nothing in a while thingy. =P
noticed that a few days ago...
Just a "minor change" but very impressive and usefull
Just a "minor change" but very impressive and usefull
Your right i dont, i run my own business and i rent the building i work from which would you believe isn't cheap certainly not as cheap as working from home.
Walking away is probably the wrong wording but just looking at the constant "why is it taking so long" and "Whats happening" threads one has to wonder.
And yes extra hands, theres talented people in this "community" that could aid the devs with the precious.
So your probably right on all counts Tristan, i dont get it and i dont understand the developers.
I just want to purchase there product,there complete product.
Now thats enough of this subject,its getting old...
Wrong, their customer base is not walking away. Some individuals are, but their customer base is growing.
Its not complete, so you can't. Everyone knows that.
Wrong again, it was old when it started. No doubt, another threat of similar nature will be started soon.
I agree with that. Its obvious, really.
I must say i admire everyones loyalty and zeal, so quick to become defensive and so quick to attack anyone that has anything different to say.
It's not a matter of who's wrong or right
the reality is your as right as i am right. It's just a different perspective. At the end of the day it's Scavier's project and the way they choose to do it is the right way, it's their choice and they are ultimately resposible for it's success or failure not us.
Not everyone's going to groove on it but so what
It doesn't matter what ever you do in life there will always be someone that thinks it should be done differently, and how you choose to do something comes down to your personality and life goals.
Pfff, same old "my opinion is different to yours, and because you don't think the same as me you are attacking me" BS.
Grow a freakin backbone man, opinions differ, have yours and stick by it, regardless of what other people say.
LFS nothing new for long time!
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