I'm in that process right now, I've got more than most 
but at least they are all for investment and not pleasure 
That's why I'm not much on LFS these last few months, hopefuly by Jan - Feb '08 I'll be in a much better position
I'm in that process right now, I've got more than most but at least they are all for investment and not pleasure That's why I'm not much on LFS these last few months, hopefuly by Jan - Feb '08 I'll be in a much better position
Another partial truth though. I doubt brake dynamics would take any longer to add now than they would've 2 years ago. If at all, not by much. Sure, fine tuning and further developing existing things could be longer, but that principle doesn't apply consisently to a swiss cheese sim. Fill in the damn holes!
You didn't, and here you only took half of my sentence to respond to
Not inherantly; but when people like Richy get attacked for their views on a benign topic, that's the issue.
It's possible that it could've even been better then right?
Yes, I know, "better" is subjective.Not you directly. But it's definitely the attitude of the active members of the board. Maybe it's their opinion too
grr lol
Sorry for seeming like taking the piss (man I love that expression, you never hear it over here....) this morning. Not feeling well lately... tired and miserable.
I knew I could sense a distinct lack of emotion in your posts!
Such is the tragedy of 90% of communication.
Interaction doesn't have to have a purpose; it is one in and of itself - that's part of the human experience. Unless you're a robot that is...
No, it's is not. I specified a type of impatience. I know I am impatient about this, it would be silly to deny that (as you pointed out with incredible precision)! However I'm not constantly whining and stamping, and I'm not even insisting they speed up, or "suggesting" anything. I just happen to let it fly in this thread that's all.
I think this is one of the major problems / issues a lot of people have who are asking for more updates (especially content).. many, like myself, don't want continuous regurgitations of the same tracks, we're bored shitless of them.. we have way too many of them as it is (look at Aston!!).. it's lazy development and shows a lack of imagination (much like just making GTR versions of existing cars rather than new cars... oops! did I say that out loud?)
What LFS needs are new _environments_.. new areas, completely new tracks.. not a few polys added / moved here and there to the tracks that have been around since day dot.
Out of all the track _combinations_ we have of the 4 tracks(?) there's about 3 that are semi interesting, IMO, BL1 being the best track in the game.
Regards,
Ian
Anything added 2, 3 or 4 years ago only had to meet the general standard of LFS at that time - as time moves on and LFS slowly improves, any new features that are added have to meet the current standard, meaning they will have to be more realistic, more precise, more complicated than the equivalent feature would have been if added X development iterations ago... by this reasoning, brake dynamics will take longer now than it would have 2 years ago!
You also have to factor in that as existing elements like the tyre model become more complex, new features like brake dynamics often have to be more complex from the start because simple implementations that would have worked with an earlier simpler tyre model (or whatever other subsystem they interact with) often have unacceptable weaknesses that are exposed by the more thorough more 'realistic' current engine.
Half of it is plenty (at least according to my wife it is)
Yep, for many folks Mariokart is 'better', for others Gran Turisimo is 'better', others consider GTR to be 'better'. I would rather play LFS !
If some guy turned up on your doorstep with a bucket and offered you money for urine what would you think?
There's some info about the origins of 'taking the piss' here
http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi ... print_topic;f=83;t=000964
cheers
Col
hehe, now this is most definitely a case of strong difference of 'opinion' rather than 'attitude'
I get the feeling this kind of discussions wouldn't crop up as often if the devs would just post a development roadmap: they should just keep a public list of the things they plan to do, along with reasonable time estimations for completion of each feature.
I mean, this is what happens in most dev projects. It would help people be more patient, it would enable everyone to see that yes, development is still ongoing, and that they can expect such and such feature by a given date (more or less).
As for now, it seems like a guessing game: are they working on the AI ? Other things ? When will the next patch be released ? Having a public roadmap would help a lot.
I mean, this is what happens in most dev projects. It would help people be more patient, it would enable everyone to see that yes, development is still ongoing, and that they can expect such and such feature by a given date (more or less).
As for now, it seems like a guessing game: are they working on the AI ? Other things ? When will the next patch be released ? Having a public roadmap would help a lot.
But they don't want to do one, and it's their choice. Us moaning and complaining isn't going to change that.
Besides, not knowing what the next patch will bring makes it so much MORE exciting! I can't wait. Despite not having free time I somehow find time for two or three hours driving just after a patch - I'm still addicted to LFS, I'm just in therapy at the moment, and keep falling off the wagon.
Besides, not knowing what the next patch will bring makes it so much MORE exciting! I can't wait. Despite not having free time I somehow find time for two or three hours driving just after a patch - I'm still addicted to LFS, I'm just in therapy at the moment, and keep falling off the wagon.
Or you can just take a break.. like I did.. for 2 years, and come back to find umm...... well, not a lot has changed really. Looks like I'm about to take my 2nd 2 year break.. maybe I'll come back to S2 BETA by then.. but there might also be a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow too or a large pile of rocking horse shit in my front room.
Regards,
Ian
Part of the reason they started LFS is exactly because they wouldn't have to have roadmaps and work the the way 'most dev projects' do!
Roadmaps seriously restrict the creative options and flexibility of projects, but for most typical commercial projects they are an unfortunate necessity.
As soon as there is a deadline fixed with a set of target features, Your heading for either a crappy bugridden product pushed out of the door, or deadlines that are missed then new ones that are also missed - unless you have exceptional bosses who are willing to compromise on features and content.
'Most' dev projects do work this way because there are larger teams that have to be coordinated and synchronized.
There are managers with bottom lines who cannot allow creative freedom because of the risks involved.
There are also share holders and/or financial partners and/or publishers who have the project by the nuts so will force it out of the door no matter how crap and unfinished it is (or shelve it).
Avoiding this traditional project setup is what has allowed Scavier to try new approaches to parts of LFS - so we get awesome innovations in the physics engine, LFS world, in-sim, features like these just would not have happened (IMO) if LFS had followed a traditional development strategy.
No guessing needed - I'll tell you exactly what they are working on!
They are working on Live For Speed!
Doing whatever is the most important job that is not yet done and is not blocked by unfinished dependencies.
cheers
Col
Meh, you can't tell me for second that they don't have general ideas of what they are planning. They just don't tell us because it's subject to change at any given time. I SERIOUSLY doubt he gets up in the morning and ponders what he thinks LFS needs next; that would be a seriously inefficient way to work.
Having development plan != having deadlines and bosses.
Having development plan != having deadlines and bosses.
Drop the drama queen act or I'll personally send you shit in a bag and stick a plastic rainbow on top of it.
Anywhooo...
If you are frustrated with the seemingly sloooooooooooow progress, then take a break. Go play other games, invent commercial fusion power, cure cancer, etc.
I wouldn't mind if Scawen posted a sticky saying:
I'd just hang around, do stuff, work, bang chicks, play LFS occasionally like now and some day there would be new mail in my inbox somewhere around 2010 spring time:
Exactly, the plans they have are fluid, publishing them would freeze them and everything would be f****d.
(Remember the few times when they have foolishly given us release dates in the past... mostly it didn't happen, even when they were 'pretty much finished' the new patch.)
True, but having some of the things that have been sugested by many folks here (not you) like additional programmers/designers, a publisher, loads of licensed content etc. would necessitate a much more restrictive process because of the hugely increased financial risks involved - Scawen would have to be the 'boss' fix the 'plans' and set the 'deadlines' ! - I'd rather he did the programming
cheers
Col
You know what? I seriously believe he does (not every morning, but everytime he gets working on a new patch)! He certainly has a list of things to do, but I really think he picks those items he works on next by what he deems is in need of upgrading the most...
Lol
But I agree on what you are saying, instad of moaning on this forum about missing new contest, go play something else or use your time on something worth using your time on.
That's it.
I have also been a LFS fan boy for months, but...
I also did a break and surprinsingly discovered that there is life beyond LFS !!!
And to my more surprise, excellent life beyond LFS. Tons of excellent stuff beyond LFS. Tons of "devs" so talented as your devs including those who make excellent mods for "commercial" sims. Tons of "devs" that are also aware of what their community thinks, whishes, and ask for. I think that perhaps in a more close way than your "devs".
I know, I know... this is not a commercial project. This is a bohemian state-of-the-art of programming from three lonely heroes. I am very sorry to be so stupid (you surely guess I am) but from the point that someone (including your "devs") SELL something, this is a commercial project. Including those organizations that sell coffee and a lot of things in those "fair commerce" stores.
They sold me (I bought it, and I agree with my purchase) a Pre-Order of S2 License. No doubt in the little letters, somewhere, someone surely put that this was a long time release, but as all the stupid man, I didn't read it, and of couse, as all the stupid man, I realized that this should be done and released in a reasonable lapse of time. My error. So I can't claim on it. But let me consider that putting those kind of expectatives in people to have them pay in advance for something that no one (including, as I have read about, your "devs") knows when will be finished is at least, imprudent, not to say tricky.
Listen, mates: yours is not a question of reasoning. It's a simple question of faith, and as I do with -for example- religions, I respect it. You are free to have loads of faith in wathever you want, including those three talented guys known as "THE DEVS". That's it. In uppercase.
But what I cannot respect from -for example- religions is the fact that all fanatics want to convert the unfaithful to their really unique truth and if not, they are automatically tainted as stupid people. That's what you, LFS fan boys, automatically do. That's one of the reasons I took my two years break after constating that there was excellent life beyond LFS.
I don't mind about the technical excelences of the inside programming. I can judge for what I see, what I ear and what I feel. And as I am so stupid, I can't see that the inside programming makes a real-time calculation to have tires deformed in a x degree turn divided by the atomic nr. of michelin composites multiplied by Phi (or something alike) but in the correct way, and not with canned effects, like all the other sims. Not to say of all those horrible canned Force Feedback effects that you can get from other sims, or excellent plugins for other sims like one released recently which really amazes. I know, I know... this is state-of-the-art sim programming.
The result of discovering other sims is amazing. Back to LFS I can consider it only a WIP arcade. The sensations I get from other sims don't admit to be compared with LFS, where I can't feel what I am driving and on what surface I am driving. Not to say that I know every and each bump, turn, and so on of all the available tracks. Ah but yes... I know... I am not a talented sim pro and thus this confirms that I am stupid.
But I am afraid to say that for some of us, ex-fan boys of LFS that are so stupid to not understand what the hell have we bought, this game is (or better I can say has) become absolutely boring.
In short, LFS is a never ending project of state-of-the-art of development only aimed to state-of-the-art sim pro's.
And I absolutely respect it. And as I do, I will take my second 2 year break riding all those horrible commercial products that are on the air. And as Ian says, perhaps then I will be absolutely surprised with a (non) commercial beta product that is the best ever developed. I really hope so.
I know, I know... I would have better waste my time in those all other horrible games instead of writing this post. But AS YOU, technically talented sim pro's, I waste my time in what I want. And I decided to spent some of it in stating my opinion here. What's wrong with it?
And be careful, my friends: from the other side (the dark side of ex LFS fan-boys), you look like every 24 hours you are one day closer to become just a sect in the world of racing sims.
Don't waste your time in replying me: I will be taking my second two years break.
Cheers,
John
Oh my god, don't do this to me, I'm crying right now.
((((Not a drama queen act at all.. it's a common response from people to tell others that have become somewhat bored of the current state / content to "go play something else and come back later".. I did that, for 2 years. I came back (I obviously like something about LFS to come back and try it again) and still not much has progressed.
I'm well aware that I bought a license for a pre-release as such, not complaining about that.. what I didn't realise I'd be buying was such a long delay in moving forward (and no, I'm not complaining about the actual purchasing.. just the delay.. £24 will be well worth the money when some decent content appears).
I find the tracks uninspiring.. most of the cars the same (although maybe I'm strange as I much prefer more of a stock car than a high downforce GTR-spec), the tracks all feel somewhat too samey samey.. not entirely, but reusing a tiny section of tracks to create a massive collection of combinations gets boring to drive on and most really not that fun considering most S2 tracks have been designed to run cars on that top 180mph+ judging by the widths / lengths of straights in most.
There's been no attempt to fix the bugs on tracks etc either (or at least that we've seen).. how long is one supposed to sit staring at that carrot hanging on the string before we think "bollox.. I'll get a takeaway"?
Regardless of my comments, I do have a lot of respect for Scawen as a coder.. he's certainly achieved something I could never do.. but people have varying levels of patience. maybe mine's less than yours.. but there's been nothing new to inspire new interest in 2 years with LFS.. but like commuting to work, driving somewhere new might be interesting to some for a while... after a few years of the same route, it starts to become a chore. I guess I was just hoping for and somewhat expected (going on past progress) that we'd have had some new content by now. Maybe I should have paid a bit more and properly bought into the "LFS Dream"(tm) where I'd be happy as long as the project is complete before I'm bedridden with age.
Regards,
Ian
Thought you went on brake again. What are you doing here, go already.
I still can not understand the people who say they don't like LFS and feel it's not for them, but still hang around moaning about it. If you do not honestly care, go away, being a silly troll is waste of time.
I still can not understand the people who say they don't like LFS and feel it's not for them, but still hang around moaning about it. If you do not honestly care, go away, being a silly troll is waste of time.
Yes, it takes longer than we all want.
Yes, we all want some new content to play with.
But at least this isn't nkRipoff. My guess is some people here would sit in an corner of an room and crying about how unfair it was from kunos to rip off their money. They soon going to write poems about it und dyeing their hair black and getting weird haircuts.
Yes, we all want some new content to play with.
But at least this isn't nkRipoff. My guess is some people here would sit in an corner of an room and crying about how unfair it was from kunos to rip off their money. They soon going to write poems about it und dyeing their hair black and getting weird haircuts.
Col,
I think many people would be happy to see any graphical improvements, and some new garnishes such as losing parts and breakable glasses.
Of course there are some important things to implement or improve, like the engine and brake behavior (stalling under bad clutch use, overheating, etc), but those simple things (is that simple? I really don't know, I just guess it is easier than physics implementations) could give a new gas to the game (apart from being a simulator it is still a video game).
Anyway it is what it is, let's wait.
The prophet says: who live will see.
I think many people would be happy to see any graphical improvements, and some new garnishes such as losing parts and breakable glasses.
Of course there are some important things to implement or improve, like the engine and brake behavior (stalling under bad clutch use, overheating, etc), but those simple things (is that simple? I really don't know, I just guess it is easier than physics implementations) could give a new gas to the game (apart from being a simulator it is still a video game).
Anyway it is what it is, let's wait.
The prophet says: who live will see.
I still don't understand why there is need for something new to be able to enjoy from LFS?
You can have tons of fun races in current state of LFS, isn't racing why we play ?
You can have tons of fun races in current state of LFS, isn't racing why we play ?
And my guess is that is a LFS forum, not NKP, but I guess the majority of those who payed for NKP and still wait are not concerning about the ridiculous money they spent with.
We wait for a stable netcode and some fixes, not to worth the money, but to honor the great feeling and feedback that this game give us and cannot be enjoyed due the lacks.
And who said that LFS is not enough fun and enjoyable?
Exactly because IT IS so funny and addicting is that we would like to see many new features that could increase the experience.
Do you remember the black windows from S1?
I don't think anyone here would choose to come back to that ages. And yes, S1 was too funny, but S2 is too much better.
What we want is that: those kind of progress that you can really feel in your steering wheel and see in your screen.
While this is not up, lets wait and playing with we have. Why not?
Oh dear.
well done
OK then - You give evidence of another group of devs who have a _closer_ relationship with their users and have an equally large user base.
Yes it is.
(#1)
um.. you just said that it isn't ?
(#2)
(#3)
They made it very clear before you bought it that they didn't know when or even if it would be finished - I guess you were just not listening ?
I assume that I am one of the people being labeled a fanatic.
That is nonsense! I make no attempt at converting anyone to anything. What I do is attempt to refute what others say in public if I disagree with them and I feel strongly about the issue. This isn't to change their minds, many more people read each post than write it!
My responses are for the other readers not the original author - I assume the same is true for the majority of folks who post on internet fora.
(#4 there you go again)
(#5 )
(#6 )
Then why are you attacking it in such an aggressive and poorly reasoned way ?
OK so now it's non-commercial again - can't make up your mind ?
Hmm, you did refer to yourself as stupid 6 times in the course of your post. No-one else has called you stupid, or implied that your are stupid - but you know yourself better than anyone else here does, so I guess we'll just have to take your word combined with the evidence of your post and accept that it's true .
hmm.. so many things, it's difficult to know where to start...
Anyway, see you in two years
Col
Hmm, when I'm racing and I'm involved in an accident, I'm way to busy trying to work out which idiot caused it to notice stuff like eye candy particle FX and suchlike. lol. whatever.
There are so many LFS users now, that you could probably find 'many people' who would like any particular 'improvement' however esoteric or pointless.
There are lots of improvements that I would like to see.
With any piece of software, there have to be compromises, you just cannot have every feature, and some features must take priority over others.
My point in all this is that when you look at the whole picture, it's not difficult to see LFS is good because Scawen has chosen his compromises wisely - often in the face of much criticism, right from the early days. In the long run, most of his decisions have proven to be good.
INDEED
What is a track Ian? To race really all you need is a layout (autocross). The rest is just scenery, while nice and all it has nothing to to with a track. This of course means by no means that more is always welcome, but to state we have 4 tracks is too simple, we have 4 sceneries.
LFS nothing new for long time!
(419 posts, started )
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