I have been wondering that if it really is even possible to do so that driving is realistic.

We all know that you can measure summer tires quite well and plot data from those to nice graphs, but this method just don't work out at all for winter tires.

Surface that tire is touching is completely different, also slipping tire can change surface to be totally different.

Winter tires without studs are of course easy compared to those studded versions, but snow surface is still completely different than ice or tarmac and you should be able to make tire to work in all these and at same time.

Then there is wet snow too, that is again another challenge.

What do you think, is it even possible to make work without supercomputer?

Possible easy solution would make a grip-formula thingie in the physics code that would calculate - the more or less - varying range of grip available on any given time under the tyre. Basically you'd insert values based on surface, climate and snow types; for slush example take base grip value a, depth of snow b, displacement of snow under one tyre rotation c, etc. etc. etc. and that formula would run 'under' every contact patch.

Of course there would have to be min and max values to avoid too dynamic grip level changes.

EDIT: Please don't tell me you are developing a Volvo winter rally simulator.

EDIT2: On the other hand it would be awesome to have old Volvos churning away in the snow and hopefully see Vain wrap his Volvo around a tree.

Quote :

EDIT: Please don't tell me you are developing a Volvo winter rally simulator.

No, it's something much, much better...

Does S2 include dynamic Ice-Floes?

Simple solution yes, but not sim solution like LFS would have or at least so I would think.

Tire physics on tarmac have already quite few parameters, lot of force combining etc, but for winter road and winter tire these are just like tip of iceberg, I would think at least.

I'm far from programmer and it would take programmer to make even semi decent winter physics as there are no single piece of software currently capable of simulating winter driving

Video as proof that snow + Volvo must be good combination (view it when ever youtube starts to work again)

Enthuisa profecional racing does a good job at it it gives you the feeling of a could surface wher it is hard for a tyre to catch grip caus lets face it even cars with winter tyers spin into other cars

I know caus dad tried to drive fast on snow

it worked out in spining thow

edit: Ther is a better one called RBR(Richard Burns Rally)

Don't qualify

Will the track in Alaska be the FE Black of LFP?

Quote from JTbo :

Simple solution yes, but not sim solution like LFS would have or at least so I would think.

Tire physics on tarmac have already quite few parameters, lot of force combining etc, but for winter road and winter tire these are just like tip of iceberg, I would think at least.

I'm far from programmer and it would take programmer to make even semi decent winter physics as there are no single piece of software currently capable of simulating winter driving

Video as proof that snow + Volvo must be good combination (view it when ever youtube starts to work again)

Drifter kids got skil
This video makes drifting look like the easypeasy stuf

Not that i find drifting easy

Quote from Chrisuu01 :

Drifter kids got skil
This video makes drifting look like the easypeasy stuf

Not that i find drifting easy

Youtube is still completely dead at least for me, but let me tell you, going sideways on snow is dead easy, specially with 240, I would say easier than in LFS

Quote from JTbo :

Youtube is still completely dead at least for me, but let me tell you, going sideways on snow is dead easy, specially with 240, I would say easier than in LFS

does that also count for keeping the slide?

Caus in enthusia that's the hardedst part with ordinary car tyres

Quote from Chrisuu01 :

does that also count for keeping the slide?

Caus in enthusia that's the hardedst part with ordinary car tyres

Very easy, of course bit more power would be nice as 82hp/1500kg is bit weak even on snow

Quote from JTbo :

Very easy, of course bit more power would be nice as 82hp/1500kg is bit weak even on snow

Whel my dad drives a 80 BHP 11 year old swift that weighs about 700 kilo's

that is becaus ist one of the cheapest thing's on earth it has like no safety
stuf and euro n camp would look at us like you are driving that deathcoffin?

Quote from JTbo :

I have been wondering that if it really is even possible to do so that driving is realistic.

We all know that you can measure summer tires quite well and plot data from those to nice graphs, but this method just don't work out at all for winter tires.

Surface that tire is touching is completely different, also slipping tire can change surface to be totally different.

Winter tires without studs are of course easy compared to those studded versions, but snow surface is still completely different than ice or tarmac and you should be able to make tire to work in all these and at same time.

Then there is wet snow too, that is again another challenge.

What do you think, is it even possible to make work without supercomputer?

I would think it's not too hard, not easy but not too hard. I've seen some info on this recently and the main difference between snow and a hard surface is that the primary means of traction is mechanical rather than frictional. Bit like driving with slicks in the rain I guess the tricky bit would be simulating how a tyre might bit into the snow. Wouldn't know though as I've never seen the stuff let alone driven on it

Rather easy? To be honest, I think the opposite. Dry tarmac is "easy" as you just have to apply your curves and besides some static grip variance the material doesn't change.

In snow the tyre profile alone can have huge effects on how the tyre behaves in different circumstances. The tyre width also plays a big role, as in narrower tyres having better overall grip due to increased pressure on the smaller contact patch, helping the tyre to dig into the snow. Also the type of snow makes a big difference.

I'd say, as for any loose surface, simulating the correct behaviour on snow is rather hard, because it is very very far from being as simple as dry_tarmac_grip * snow_grip_modifier.


E: D'oh, should read your post better, but my point still stands to anyone who thinks it's easy

Quote from Glenn67 :

I would think it's not too hard, not easy but not too hard. I've seen some info on this recently and the main difference between snow and a hard surface is that the primary means of traction is mechanical rather than frictional. Bit like driving with slicks in the rain I guess the tricky bit would be simulating how a tyre might bit into the snow. Wouldn't know though as I've never seen the stuff let alone driven on it

Grip varies really a lot, also car can start pulling left or right, there can be two more slippery 'rails' where cars have packed snow into ice and rest of road has more grip that still varies a lot, quite different from tarmac

Then snow at side of roads, touch it and it 'sucks' into it, getting you stuck

That is lot of things at enviroment too, tire has completely different characteristic then at snow, ice and tarmac, also when temperature is around 0C and -20C snow has completely different grip and tire behaves differently on different surfaces again.

I would say that it is much more of challenge than one may first think, maybe easiest solution would be start with only ice?

Quote from JTbo :

maybe easiest solution would be start with only ice?

good stuff, i like the comparison you made about the rails of traction in the snow. If the main difference is mechanical friction, then I guess keeping tyres at zero temp and somehow coding the rubber lines (rubber layed down by tyres in corners under dry conditions, does LFS simulate extra grip when the tyre runs along these lines in dry conditions?) to be layed down by the tyres 100% of the time depending on snow depth/angle of attack and speed of the tyre pushing the snow...the greater the speed/angle of attack and snow depth the greater and pronounced the rail (large rails of snow in corners for example) , but one would imagine that for the duration of one race these rails should remain static, or, could there be numorous rails interacting constantly shifting/pushing snow from side to side...then we're getting into partical simulation...fluffy powder sim.

kk, now all we need is for the man to code a couple of hundred gallons of cold water and we'll all meet at Aston and begin testing LOL! tis freeeeezing out there,

+1 for throwing cold water on aston and skidding all over teh place

Basic ice could be the easiest to start with. But I doubt skating ring driving simulation would be that much of a hit.

Of course...if you modeled the ice making machine (what was the fancy name for it), it could be a hit among hockey fans.

Quote from Blackout :

Basic ice could be the easiest to start with. But I doubt skating ring driving simulation would be that much of a hit.

Of course...if you modeled the ice making machine (what was the fancy name for it), it could be a hit among hockey fans.

You might like to check out winter rallycross videos for starters

Quote from JTbo :

You might like to check out winter rallycross videos for starters

Yes, well I was thinking mirror finish type of ice without studded tires. :P

Quote from Blackout :

Yes, well I was thinking mirror finish type of ice without studded tires. :P

Without studs it would be stupid, winter tire needs studs, how else those would cope with ice

Those fancy near noiseless winter tires without studs could be there too to reveal how bad they really are to those who don't know yet

But I'm talking about the Ice making machine simulation now, you can't have studs or you ruin the ice. It would probably be the most simplest thing to model you first.

Quote from JTbo :

I would say that it is much more of challenge than one may first think, maybe easiest solution would be start with only ice?

I didn't for a moment really think it would be easy but had a feeling making a comment like that would stimulate discusion

Even a good dirt simulation would require alot of the characterisitcs you discribe (i.e. ruts, tyres digging in, banks, pot holes, loose/soft offline, firmer on racing line, firm compact sand, soft sand, rough gravel, pea gravel which is my favourite etc, etc)

Anything is possible, but I think it would be too random. Since grip on snow is rather random; pure snow, pure snow with ice under it, moist snow (the type that sticks to everyting like gum on hair), moist snow with ice under it, etc. etc. And taking to account, riding snow without any tyre marks is different than driving on snow that has been stomped on the ground by tyres. Adding all that, it would be just too random and thus not realistic. What do you think? Im not a expert lol