Alright so you've played through the track and made the quickest times you can and you feel your up to battling other guys. You make a turn and suddenly he crashes you or you crash him. Words fly and basically the crap hits the fan. Whose fault is it? Yours? or his? The answer? Probably both of you guys.

Lines are, in the simplest term, the path you will take when you are
entering and exiting the corner as well as straightways. The first step in respecting lines is understanding your line as well as your opponents. Consider the fact that your entering a chicane side by side that there isn't frankly enough space for you to take your ideal line and vice versa. what do you do? The first step is to imagine the line in which the driver beside you must take and then allow him enough room to take that line. How does he know which line he takes? Well because he should also be imagining the line you will take and then give you room to take it. So in this regard we can see that it is only through the cooperation between both drivers that a collision is avoided.

Sometimes you need to yield your line to the one beside you. When do you do this? This is a bit subjective but generally you need to have at least half a car length lead on the car before you know you have right of way so long as the line isn't extremely suboptimal. Sometimes, like driving on the highway, you will see guys who cut you off, or change lanes without checking their blind spots, do not hesitate to sound the horn. I do this on a daily basis to work every morning. Similarly, before you decide to cut someone AT LEAST check your blind spot. Guys with G25 wheels can bind the paddle shifts to do just that to make it simple and easy to do. This is always good driving /racing practice.

Finally if your slow don't intentionally block someone from passing you or for that matter if your fast don't push the guys car off the track!

Collisions occur when either driver does something careless while avoiding collisions require action on both drivers.

On a side note: I have seen some guys use the signal lights to indicate their intentions. I think thats a creative way to indicate to other drivers your intentions.

Quote from yuwy :

Sometimes, like driving on the highway, you will see guys who cut you off, or change lanes without checking their blind spots, do not hesitate to sound the horn.

Are we talking about highway driving or racing in Live for Speed? Please do not lean on the horn in Live for Speed - it marks you out as a chump.

Quote from yuwy :

Finally if your slow don't intentionally block someone from passing you

If you are infront of someone (ie: Not being lapped) then blocking faster drivers is perfectly legitimate. It's a race, not a qualifying session. Be fair though - only one defensive move before each corner. Don't weave all over the track to stop someone getting past.

Quote from yuwy :

On a side note: I have seen some guys use the signal lights to indicate their intentions. I think thats a creative way to indicate to other drivers your intentions.

It's a bad idea because it could be misinterpreted. Does indicating left mean "I'm staying left" or "pass on the left"? We've had this discussion before and found that people have different ideas about what signals mean. Better to use body language - make your intentions obvious by where you place the car.

For avoiding collisions, you only really need to remember a few things:

1 - The driver in front has the right to take whichever line he (or she) wishes to take, and the driver behind is responsible for avoiding a collision, that means he also needs to account for early braking on the part of the driver who is in front of him.

2 - When overtaking in a turn, the driver in front needs to be aware of the other driver's intentions, and the right of way will be determined by significant overlap. A driver has overlap when the front of his car is in front of the other driver's HEAD, not his front bumper. If that condition is met, the driver being overtaken must then lift off ever so slightly, just so he can get out of the corner right behind the other car and remain battling normally.

3 - Blocking is okay if done once before each corner, as the previous poster said. If done wisely (but safely, otherwise you'll just clip the front bumper of the trailing car..), the driver who's attempting to make an overtaking maneuvre will need to lift off and will lose time.

4 - Abrupt reductions of speed are definitely not recommended, even when being lapped. The car being lapped must lift off slightly and remain in one place until he is lapped, because the driver behind has a better view of what is happening. Once he's lapped, he may continue racing normally. If he loses speed too suddenly, there's a chance the driver who's lapping won't have time to react. If this happens in a turn, the driver being lapped has to take a line that is not the ideal one, and remain in it until he can continue racing normally.

Sounds like too much to keep in mind, but they're really simple rules that could be summed up in one or two lines.

Quote from Aiden McGeady :

4 - Abrupt reductions of speed are definitely not recommended, even when being lapped. The car being lapped must lift off slightly and remain in one place until he is lapped, because the driver behind has a better view of what is happening. Once he's lapped, he may continue racing normally. If he loses speed too suddenly, there's a chance the driver who's lapping won't have time to react. If this happens in a turn, the driver being lapped has to take a line that is not the ideal one, and remain in it until he can continue racing normally.

Thats the one that needs drummed home more than the rest, imo. Last night on ctra ss1 there were many, many examples of this, even some cars parked on the track near corners etc....

I mean, really......:smash3d: :irked:

"Are we talking about highway driving or racing in Live for Speed? Please do not lean on the horn in Live for Speed - it marks you out as a chump."

I didn't mean to lean on the horn, something like a short horn for someone doing something crazy, like for example your side by side with another driver and he decides to turn into you for no reason. I'm not sure why people do that but it happens.

"If you are infront of someone (ie: Not being lapped) then blocking faster drivers is perfectly legitimate. It's a race, not a qualifying session. Be fair though - only one defensive move before each corner. Don't weave all over the track to stop someone getting past."

In a race or pickup race, I believe the unwritten rule is to only allow one block, so in that regard I agree, but to say that blocking is perfectly legitimate is almost like saying you can have a 4 car lane blocking the entire width of the road.

"It's a bad idea because it could be misinterpreted. Does indicating left mean "I'm staying left" or "pass on the left"? We've had this discussion before and found that people have different ideas about what signals mean. Better to use body language - make your intentions obvious by where you place the car."

True I suppose, although I take my context from the demo scene and the unwritten rule i suppose is that hazard lights means a high angle drift, left means im going left and right means im going right.

Quote from yuwy :

I didn't mean to lean on the horn, something like a short horn for someone doing something crazy, like for example your side by side with another driver and he decides to turn into you for no reason. I'm not sure why people do that but it happens.

If they've already done it, what use is banging your horn? If they haven't already done it, do you pre-emptively bang your horn to make sure they don't? If so, presumably you'd have to be tooting that bloody horn every time someone got alongside you, and so would he, just to confirm that you've both seen eachother. That would get very noisy very quickly.

Best to just leave the horn alone IMHO.

Quote from yuwy :

In a race or pickup race, I believe the unwritten rule is to only allow one block, so in that regard I agree, but to say that blocking is perfectly legitimate is almost like saying you can have a 4 car lane blocking the entire width of the road.

I suppose you meant four cars side-by-side? I can't say I've ever seen that happen, and it's not really relevant anyway. We're talking about racing, not driving in formation.

Quote from yuwy :

True I suppose, although I take my context from the demo scene and the unwritten rule i suppose is that hazard lights means a high angle drift, left means im going left and right means im going right.

I've never seen anybody drift on a racing server and get away with it for very long. Anyway, that's the problem with unwritten rules - some people will misinterpret them. Whereas if you stay to the outside of a corner, that says in no uncertain terms, "There's a quicker line up the inside that I'm not occupying - do you want it?". Any decent racer will be in there straight away.

I always make two short honks when moving to side, right where we have quite big blind spot, that is something not too realistic but as most don't have 3d helmets it is good way to tell where I am and what I'm going to do. I really appreciate if others do same when overtaking me, there is quite big area where you can't see, even if you would push look left/right buttons.

This way there is less tears and cry and it is so much more enjoyable to batlle close battles, even skills are not alien class (other guys do have jobs you know, so no 7 hours practise sessions, hour or two perhaps in a week at best, often few weeks without starting LFS, show how to be alien with that little practise )

Problem here is, people who need to learn this stuff are most likely not reading forums. Taking inside line and going side-by-side into a corner is not really pleasant experience on public servers, quite often other guy still goes for optimum line crashing you both out and bang, you're banned.

What annoys me most is that on servers with different cars people abuse the fact that some cars are much more "fragile" to body contacts and spin out very easily.

Quote from JTbo :

I always make two short honks when moving to side, right where we have quite big blind spot, that is something not too realistic but as most don't have 3d helmets it is good way to tell where I am and what I'm going to do. I really appreciate if others do same when overtaking me, there is quite big area where you can't see, even if you would push look left/right buttons.

This way there is less tears and cry and it is so much more enjoyable to batlle close battles, even skills are not alien class (other guys do have jobs you know, so no 7 hours practise sessions, hour or two perhaps in a week at best, often few weeks without starting LFS, show how to be alien with that little practise )

it really annoys me when people use their horn when they get outside/inside of me. i KNOW you are there so i don't need to hear your horn. i guess i can see how it is good to do for some people who aren't paying attention to the cars around them, but it bothers me anyway.

Quote from UncleBenny :

it really annoys me when people use their horn when they get outside/inside of me. i KNOW you are there so i don't need to hear your horn. i guess i can see how it is good to do for some people who aren't paying attention to the cars around them, but it bothers me anyway.

I tested LFS with projector and widescreen resolution and WOW, I wish everyone would have such setup as then there is absolutely no need for honking, you can actually see like you see in real car, if you can accept bit unrealistic high FOV.

My experience is that there is quite less of racers that get annoyed from honking compared to those who crash unless are honked, so in that sense I think it is worth to do, but really I recommend 50" widescreen pic for everyone

Quote from JTbo :

I tested LFS with projector and widescreen resolution and WOW, I wish everyone would have such setup as then there is absolutely no need for honking, you can actually see like you see in real car, if you can accept bit unrealistic high FOV.

My experience is that there is quite less of racers that get annoyed from honking compared to those who crash unless are honked, so in that sense I think it is worth to do, but really I recommend 50" widescreen pic for everyone

i use FOV of 120 so i am quite jaded already

Quote from Aiden McGeady :

For avoiding collisions, you only really need to remember a few things:

1 - The driver in front has the right to take whichever line he (or she) wishes to take, and the driver behind is responsible for avoiding a collision, that means he also needs to account for early braking on the part of the driver who is in front of him.

2 - When overtaking in a turn, the driver in front needs to be aware of the other driver's intentions, and the right of way will be determined by significant overlap. A driver has overlap when the front of his car is in front of the other driver's HEAD, not his front bumper. If that condition is met, the driver being overtaken must then lift off ever so slightly, just so he can get out of the corner right behind the other car and remain battling normally.

....
Sounds like too much to keep in mind, but they're really simple rules that could be summed up in one or two lines.

As defined by you, these are not 'simple rules', they are in fact ambiguous and open to creative interpretation.... unfortunately, it is impossible to have a set of rules for cornering rights that are simple and completely comprehensive - in fact, you would probably need addenda for many individual corners, car types and driving styles!

The biggest problem is that of deciding if the overtaking driver has fair overlap and therefor rights to the apex. The rules you give about front bumper being level with head are fine and dandy if you are overtaking on a straight, but as soon as you are in a corner, they are woefully inadequate!

Two cars turning in, their relative angles changing... the overtaking car could pull a broad side 'drift' to scrub off speed, suddenly from his POV, he is level with the other car - when he looks to his mirror it is now beside him rather than ahead ! In this case, I would say that there still is not 'fair' overlap (many 'bargers' think they are in the right because of this effect, and their claim is valid within your set of 'simple' rules).
What if the guy in front takes a deep line into the corner each lap, but the guy behind uses a tighter corner entry due to a different setup and driving style? It's possible that the guy behind starts turning with or before the lead car, and by the time the lead car starts to turn in, again, the overlap changes in a 'false' way, as the cars rotate, the perceived overlap changes... in this second case, it is much more difficult to state for sure which driver has the corner at any particular time - you need detailed guidelines, and ultimately an experienced adjudicator who can make a judgment based on experience, and also watching replays of the whole incident from different angles.

If you want a simple guideline then something like this is less open to interpretation and abuse:
"if the overtaking car does not have fair overlap (as defined above) before either car begins to turn in at a corner, then any incident involving a collision between the two cars is his responsibility!"

Even this would still require some flexibility in interpretation - it assumes that both drivers are competent and of comparable skill levels, there is no mechanical or 'virtual' failure and that the leading driver doesn't attempt to use the rule to his advantage by intentionally driving in an unpredictable manner or 'brake testing' the overtaking driver...

basically as soon as you try to apply any 'simple' rule to a real situation, you discover that you needed a much more complex rule in the first place

Col