Quote from Woz :

Aussie V8s run H patterns and they are GTR like spec? So why unrealistic.

Well Aussie V8 is pretty much the only top level / pro series where rule book says H-pattern. I hope they'll never change that But it's a spec series and LFS GTRs are not touring cars, so not exactly same thing.

Quote from ajp71 :

Sequential gearboxes have been within reach for GT teams for years yet they are still by no means the exclusive choice of transmission, a lot of it is down to personal preference nothing else.

I doubt driver's personal preference matters much because sequential is faster and easier to use.

In "amateur" series like VLN or FIA GT, it's a budget question so H pattern is obvious choice because it's much cheaper, but that's not the case in FIA GT / ALMS / Le Mans etc. I claim that today there are no H-pattern powered cars in these series, only expections might be the few privately build cars that once in a while shows up in a race or two.

I once asked about this stuff from one driver who has been driving several cars (F430, C6R and some others) in French GT series and random races in FIA GT and he said last time he used clutch for shifting was in 2002 in Bi-Turbo Porsche.

Probably only matter of time when paddles become "standard" in GT cars. Which is a pity, it's always less job to do for the driver

Quote :

LFS may as well give a representation of the broad spread of gearbox choices available, although I think most driving enthusiasts would agree that they don't want to be racing or racing against Ferrari style paddle shift/TC/ABS computer driven cars.

I agree, sims are so much more easier to drive that I see no use for TC in sims (except maybe for F1).

Quote from evilgeek :

huh?

at half a tenth per shift (guessing), time will add up quick, plus the FZR can't run longer stints, as it burns way more fuel. so i think the balance should be fairly close now.

Guessing isn't going to do much good.
And secondly fuel has never been the limiting factor for stint length. In endurance races fzr can do a 1 hour stint most of the time, when xrr is limited to 40-50 minutes.

Well now it looks like the FZR is ahead of XRR on the oval and FXR is still behind.
The H-Shifter only matters at the start, but XRR's have serious probs getting the power down. So no disadvantage for the FZR.
The early redline in FZR is annoying, but with 5th gear for normal driving and 6th gear for drafting it is not a problem.
Only disadvantage the FZR has is the higher fuel consumption but this only matters on longer distance races.

I still have to check for the tire consumption, but so far I can say the new balancing does not work for the oval.

Since the oval only relies on top speed, it is obvious this patch wasn't really going to help there. Try at a proper race track.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Since the oval only relies on top speed, it is obvious this patch wasn't really going to help there. Try at a proper race track.

It obvious? Why should improvements, particularly regarding the GTR balancing exclude the conditions on the oval? That makes no sense. A balance is only perfect at the point it covers all possible situations. Correct me if im wrong. Personal likes or dislikes hither and thither.

If you can device a system that makes the class balanced for ever combination of track and situation, let us know, please. At leas it'll keep you busy for a while....

Some cars will have the advantage in some circumstances no matter what we do. It's like that in real life too.

It is impossible to balanace all cars on all tracks with all drivers for all race lengths. I'd have thought that the Oval on short races is one of the most likely to show up differences in the cars...

The balancing is more an issue in long (over 50 lap) races, and isn't necessarily just about lap times, but about refuelling times, fuel economy, tyre heat/wear etc. Whilst the FZRs might disappear into the distance, you can hope to catch them with less pit stops or more consistency.

Quote from atledreier :

If you can device a system that makes the class balanced for ever combination of track and situation, let us know, please. At leas it'll keep you busy for a while....



Some cars will have the advantage in some circumstances no matter what we do. It's like that in real life too.

i know it could never be "perfect" but the goal is to get it as close to it as possible right? Otherwise all the effort would be useless. However, excluding various things, such as the oval will not help finishing it. I think and correct me if im wrong but at some point the oval can also provide important informations since its a different kind of track and the way the people make use of the vehicles is also rather different.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It is impossible to balanace all cars on all tracks with all drivers for all race lengths. I'd have thought that the Oval on short races is one of the most likely to show up differences in the cars...



The balancing is more an issue in long (over 50 lap) races, and isn't necessarily just about lap times, but about refuelling times, fuel economy, tyre heat/wear etc. Whilst the FZRs might disappear into the distance, you can hope to catch them with less pit stops or more consistency.

believe it or not but its also possible to host one hour races (or more if you dare ) on the oval as we do once in a while.

Well the weight penalties that have been given with the patches before greatly helped to equal out XRR and FZR.
I thought, it was also made to have broader variety in gtr cars used on the oval.

If an oval is a proper track or not doesn't really matter.
The devs included an oval in the game, so "it does matter" in all simulation related things as much as the other tracks do.

I am about bit disappointed to get such a reply from a moderator here.

Stop bashing, yankman only said, the actual balances does not work on the oval so far. And that is a valid argument.

My feelings still are: FZR is fastest, XRR got closer, but not close enough and FXR is far behind.

Frankly the Oval is a really "extreme" place to balance the cars for - it would be like trying to get the cars on an AutoX layout.

IMO the cars need to be "most balanced" for long races on long, wide tracks like Aston and Westhill. This is what Scawen's done.

Seriously, i'd love to hear your opinion on the way they should be balanced while the cars still have differences.

Bob may be a moderator, but he is also allowed to have an opinion.

Quote from yankman :

I am about bit disappointed to get such a reply from a moderator here.

Theres no reason to be disappointed. He is one of "them".

Why? The moderators are just players like you and me. They have no reason to 'behave' differently... Why should they?

Quote from tristancliffe :

The balancing is more an issue in long (over 50 lap) races, and isn't necessarily just about lap times, but about refuelling times, fuel economy, tyre heat/wear etc. Whilst the FZRs might disappear into the distance, you can hope to catch them with less pit stops or more consistency.

Totally correct, I have even driven a race with 360 Laps on the oval.
If it comes to longer races the XRR is so far clearly the car of choice.
The FZR might be faster but it is not fast enough to give the advantage of an additional pit stop.

The problem here is that the XRR could run >110 laps with R3 tires and the FZR only arround 80 (patch x10).

If u do al little math, the XRR has the pit stop advantage only if a race lasts longer then 240 laps, which is quite a long distance.

So I care more for equal speed rather then fuel consumption.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Why? The moderators are just players like you and me. They have no reason to 'behave' differently... Why should they?

I really hope that moderators are players. But in terms of discussion they shall "moderate", rather then starting an old topic, which caused several flame wars.
It not even belongs to this thread.

Quote from Jakg :

Frankly the Oval is a really "extreme" place to balance the cars for - it would be like trying to get the cars on an AutoX layout.

weight penalties was a good solution, although the FXR was still 1 second slower the FZR and XRR where almost perfectly balanced. So much about "extreme"

Quote from Jakg :

Seriously, i'd love to hear your opinion on the way they should be balanced while the cars still have differences.

They'll always have, right? So whats your point?

I just want to say that finally HL times and online times (quali laps) are going to be same, i can come back for FZR hotlaps

Quote from 510N3D :

weight penalties was a good solution, although the FXR was still 1 second slower the FZR and XRR where almost perfectly balanced. So much about "extreme"



They'll always have, right? So whats your point?

Extreme as in that handling isn't that important, it's all about the top gear, power on the straights etc.

The cars have differences, so they will never be balanced everywhere. Catering to making them equal on the oval WOULD make them unbalanced on most proper tracks.

Quote from Jakg :

Extreme as in that handling isn't that important, it's all about the top gear, power on the straights etc.

Your not right at this point.
If u setup the car with hardest possible suspension, lowest wings and lowest ride height, you will not get fast lap times on the oval.
U should give it a try.

Quote from Jakg :

The cars have differences, so they will never be balanced everywhere. Catering to making them equal on the oval WOULD make them unbalanced on most proper tracks.

Yeah thats the problem, the oval is far different from the other tracks,
but why not to try to find a good compromise ?

Quote from Jakg :

Extreme as in that handling isn't that important, it's all about the top gear, power on the straights etc.

Ok then take a proper oval set for any car and make the suspension as stiff or as soft as possible or drive without downforce and then try to catch a line as close as possible to the apex in turn three. /exaggerate

Quote from Jakg :

Catering to making them equal on the oval WOULD make them unbalanced on most proper tracks.

I doubt that. But i can be wrong with my assumption as same as you are.

Edit: yankman you forum hotlapper

Quote from N I K I :

I just want to say that finally HL times and online times (quali laps) are going to be same, i can come back for FZR hotlaps

I actually do think, that in patch Y penalty weights online will be reintroduced, as the GTR class is more unbalanced than b4 the patch with penalties...

Edit: Besides that, There might be a reason, why the leagues driving on oval have very restrictive and close technical rules... So far I dont know a real Oval league, running a flat six na, a flat 4 turbo and an inline 4 turbo at the same level.

Quote from Vykos69 :

I actually do think, that in patch Y penalty weights online will be reintroduced, as the GTR class is more unbalanced than b4 the patch with penalties...

In that case i hope that weight will be in HL mode then

Why? Surely hotlaps are all against the same car, so the handicaps would just change the speed of ALL the cars...

Quote from Vykos69 :

I actually do think, that in patch Y penalty weights online will be reintroduced, as the GTR class is more unbalanced than b4 the patch with penalties...

I was under the impression that the balancing we had in patch X was temporary until it could be fixed in the next physics incompatible patch, making the cars we race online and those used for hotlapping the same again.

If it is more unbalanced now than before, have the beta testers been doing their job properly ?

I like the new way of balancing the cars by different gearboxes.
Whatever will be changed in Patch Y:
H-Pattern should still stay in FZR as sequentials in XRR and FXR