I already asked this question in the test-patch thread, but it got repeatedly overlooked and there's so much other stuff going on there, that I decided to post here again, as I'd really be interested to find an answer to this:

I'm a little puzzled by how the sequential gear boxes work in LFS now. I thought many, if not most sequential gear boxes found in race cars needed clutch and throttle blip on downshift to get quick reliable and smooth gear changes. But apparantly they don't work like that in LFS. The way it is, you can easily down shift without blipping on the FBM or the GTRs and you don't need to clutch. Also, when auto clutching like I am doing, the clutch is not engaged on down shifting and it doesn't seem to cause any misadvantages to down shift clutch-less. In the FBM it's even easier to down shift without blipping, it seems, as it's very easy to get the timing wrong when trying to blip and as a result, you don't change gear.

Am I wrong in my (very limited) knowledge about sequentials? Do we only have types in LFS that don't need blipping and clutching on down shifting?

(sorry, if this a dumb question or if I have gotten something mixed up)

I don't really know what you are trying to ask, you basically just stated alot of facts about how the game is now. They took AUTO-throttle cut and throttle blip off, I don't understand this... For the road cars, sure, but now it doesn't work on the race cars? It's possible in a real car with sequential gearbox to keep the throttle pressed when changing up OR down, just the concequences when doing this and changing DOWN gears, is obviously more severe, and pointless, as you are probobly braking as you are downchanging, so there is no need to be on the throttle.

Quote from BlueFlame :

I don't really know what you are trying to ask, you basically just stated alot of facts about how the game is now. They took AUTO-throttle cut and throttle blip off, I don't understand this... For the road cars, sure, but now it doesn't work on the race cars? It's possible in a real car with sequential gearbox to keep the throttle pressed when changing up OR down, just the concequences when doing this and changing DOWN gears, is obviously more severe, and pointless, as you are probobly braking as you are downchanging, so there is no need to be on the throttle.

Not always are your fully off the throttle in braking, Trail braking (i think i said that right) is done by applying the throttle while braking, somehow helping to stop the car better (i don't know the technicalities, it just works).

Quote from mcintyrej :

Not always are your fully off the throttle in braking, Trail braking (i think i said that right) is done by applying the throttle while braking, somehow helping to stop the car better (i don't know the technicalities, it just works).

Oh, no Trail Braking is when you are braking with the engine and turning all in the same motion I believe, it's a favoured GPL technique. Throttle is on sometimes by mistake when underbraking yea, but it's not full throttle, and I am talking about changing gear, whilst full throttle.

Maybe you're not the only one who doesn't understand what I am asking, as hardly anybody replys.

I'll try again.

Here's what Johannes van Overbeek has to say about the 997 RSR he drives in ALMS:

"...smooth and reliable downshifts in the GT3 RSR require both a healthy throttle blip and use of the clutch pedal."

So they do in rL. By my expereinece in LFS smooth and reliable downshifts don't require a healthy throttle blip and use of the clutch pedal. Downshifting the FBM for me is much more reliable and smooth without blipping (or clutching which I don't do manually, but maybe the clutch should kick in automatically on down shifts?). Thus my question, do the sequentials in LFS work as they would in rL or are they easier to operate and thus not realistic?

Most sequential boxes require either a blip or the of clutch (or both), depending on the exact design, driver skill etc. It's quite rare for a manually operated mechanical sequential (which is what LFS recreates) to have any form of auto blip on downshifts, or auto clutching. There are, however, common aftermarket 'upgrades' which allow full throttle shifting by detecting when your hand is on (or applying slight pressure to) the gear lever, and then cutting the ignition momentarily.

If you want to drive the sequentials accurately, clutch and throttle whilst braking will be required.

in this next patch, theres 2 kinds of sequentials:
the FBMW (henceforth, Formula beemer->FeeBeemer) has a non throttle cut sequential, meaning you either lift of the gas to shift up, OR use the clutch and lift (though you can choose not to lift, but will eat up the clutch).
The others (FOX, FB8, FXR, XRR) have a throttle-cut sequential - very much like the current roadcar semi-automatic gearboxes found in the newer cars (like the flappy-paddle citroen c4 picasso, the smart fortwo, and on the other end of the spectrum, the flappy paddles of the maserati, F430 and astons.). These work via a "robot" that engages the clutch, and then changes gears for you. It can range from downright retarded (like in the Smart) or uber highspeed (like in the F430)
In these robotic semi-autos there is no clutch pedal. I believe LFS simulates this kind of tranny, as a regular full auto (torque-converter auto) would be ripped apart by the most powerfull engines. Additionally, these trannys ALSO cut your throttle, so you can keep your foot on the gas to shift up. They do NOT blip on downshift (as in regular driving it would be needed all the time, and "wastes" fuel) but they DO cut. Infact, in most, if you lift off the throttle on upshift it gets confused and leads to quite a jerky shift. (basically, a computer reads how much throttle your putting, and decides to shift quickly or more slowly depending on how much you are throttling (is that a word?). If you lift mid-way through the shift it tries to slow down the shift to match a less sporty driving style.
I have no idea if the Febemer has a clutch pedal IRL, but since you can put in LFS settings "shifter" type transmission and manual clutch and STILL shift without using the clutch pedal, methinks it doesnt, and has a robotic-style semi-auto that has no upshiftcut (and for safety doesnt change up if your on the throttle).

Just to make this clear: I'm not at all asking for autoblip, I would quite happily do this myself. Problem is, when trying, quite frequently downshifts won't work. Whereas when not blipping, downshifting is really no problem at all. So, I am finding it quite hard to operate the sequential (at least on the FBM) accurately, especially as it's not penalized to operate it "wrong".

Also, if most sequentials require clutch use on downshift, shouldn't LFS autoclutch just like it does with h-shifters?

And to understand this further: What exactly happens when you downshift a sequential without blipping and clutch use in rL? Does it change gear at all? Does it shift but unsettle the car violently? Or what happens?

edit @Stigpt: not talking about upshift at all. as far as I can see, this works just like it is supposed to in rL. It's the downshifting that worries me, as it seems it's not very realistic right now.

ok this needs a whole bunch of corrections

Quote from Stigpt :

The others (FOX, FB8, FXR, XRR) have a throttle-cut sequential

actually it cuts the ignition not the throttle => the green bar stays where its at

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very much like the current roadcar semi-automatic gearboxes found in the newer cars

its nothing like these

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like the flappy-paddle citroen c4 picasso, the smart fortwo

those are all normal auto boxes with manual override

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and on the other end of the spectrum, the flappy paddles of the maserati, F430 and astons.

and those are like the gearbox in the bf1 which does also engage the clutch while shifting a normal manual box via hydraulic actuators

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I believe LFS simulates this kind of tranny, as a regular full auto (torque-converter auto) would be ripped apart by the most powerfull engines.

by the looks of it lfs just takes the same gearbox thats on the formula bmw and takes the load off the gears for you

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Additionally, these trannys ALSO cut your throttle, so you can keep your foot on the gas to shift up.

see above

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I have no idea if the Febemer has a clutch pedal IRL

of course it has how else would you get it going in the first place ?

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and has a robotic-style semi-auto that has no upshiftcut

its not robotic its just a standard fully mechanical sequential gearbox with no bells and whistles whatsoever

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(and for safety doesnt change up if your on the throttle).

that has nothing to do with safety
it just cant change gear as long as theres torque going through the gearbox

The LFS cars above use dog boxes (not sure about the F1). IRL this is how you shift:
To shift up, You put some pressure on the shifter, release the throttle, then you'll FEEL you can move the shifter, so you slam the shifter into the next gear and get back on the throttle. You don't use a clutch. You could use the clutch but you'll just wear it out, it has no advantage.
As shotglass said, in a more advanced system with some basic electronics, you don't even need to get off the throttle, the electronics detect when you move the shifter, cuts the ignition and all you do is slam it into the next gear, with your foot flat on the throttle.

To downshift you do use the clutch, just like a normal box. You can use a bit of throttle when you get into the next gear, but that's for stablising the back end. You can do clutchless downshifts with throttle blip, but it's a very precise work, it isn't recommended and is usually associated with a bit of intervening electronics.

What doesn't work IMO is the way the upshift is simulated in the FBM, because you can't FEEL when you've selected the next gear, so I find myself trying to get into next gear and it works sometimes but not always. I have no idea when i'm supposed to get back on the throttle, can't even hear it. For me it's a very unrewarding uninituative system.
I would like to hear how other deal with it. I'm sure there is a way to shift fast without ever missing a gear.

@Linsen - The sequentials in LFS work exactly how I expected them to. I'm pretty sure a blip/clutch is not required to make the 'box downshift my only guess is the gearbox is better able to cope with engaging a new gear with a load across it than taking it out of gear. Of course in practice everyone will want to blip and it's probably better for the gearbox as well but you can physically make it change gear without blipping or clutching IRL. Of course it should be noted that different gearboxes will behave differently so one set of rules doesn't necessarily apply to all.

@Stigpt - there are (to my knowledge) no conventional road cars with a manually operated sequential gearbox so there's no point in comparing them.

Quote from lococost :

I would like to hear how other deal with it.

i just hold the shift up button long before the shift and just left when the revs sound about right
as soon as i hear the revs change i get back on the throttle

Quote from ajp71 :

Of course it should be noted that different gearboxes will behave differently so one set of rules doesn't necessarily apply to all.

That's probably true. I'd expect the gear box on the 997 RSR to work a little different from the one in the FBM. Also, engine inertia plays a role here, I suppose? Meaning, shifting down in a 997 RSR is likely to unsettle the car much more than shifting down in the FBM which obviously has a rather small bike-engine. I haven't driven the FXR or the XRR much, yet, but I'd expect blipping on downshift to be more important with those. Unfortunately I'm just not capable of button-clutching manually and I don't have a clutch pedal, so I won't be testing that part.

Anyway, we'll see how it all comes together after we have some more experience with the new physics.

Quote from Linsen :

Problem is, when trying, quite frequently downshifts won't work.

Yeah, agree with this. In real FBMW/F3 type cars downshifts are done with blipping and without clutch. This isn't really possible with the new LFS sequentials. You have to wait so long befor you can initiate the blip that it's of no use anymore anyway.

Do real-life sequential shift cars (like the FBM) have a clutch pedal? If so, is it used while at all while racing, or just to get going? (I believe F1 cars have a clutch paddle on the steering wheel)

From what others have said, it seems that the most realistic downshift would be to blip with no clutch, but that's nearly impossible in LFS for some reason. I have been just not using the clutch on the FOX and FBM (the only sequential box cars I've tried with X30) because it's quicker and easier (though not as much fun as clutch+blip), but it somehow feels "wrong".

If no clutch was needed, wouldn't there be an automatic clutch and throttle cut/blip when shifting? Or are sequential gearbox transmissions built to withstand the constant abuse?

Quote from Shotglass :

"I don't know if it has a clutch pedal"
of course it has how else would you get it going in the first place ?

Ask a formula 1 driver that. They will point out the clutch paddel on the wheel, and mention the fact that if the car knows you havn't given it enough throttle to pull away, it will clutch back in for you.

I wouldn't say it totally unreasonable for a formula BMW to have a paddel clutch... if you put that engine in the bike you operate it hydraulically by hand just fine.

When I drive these kind of sequentials IRL I always clutch and blip with each downshift, and 90% of upshifts(no blip obv.) as well. When you or your associates have to repair the transmission/drive/engine yourself if it goes wrong, it pays to look after them, and the time you lose is negligable with practice. There is always something good to be said for mechanically sympathetic drivers.

Someone could give Colin Reynolds an email: [email protected]

He's the technical queries guy at Hewland Engineering, who make the gearbox on the FBM.

Quote :

Specification:
The ultimate transmission for small single seat cars, that require the latest technology.
FTR features: Sequential gear shift, limited slip differential, (or free) bespoke FTR gear train assembly, integral engine oil tank, integral suspension rocker mounts. These combined attributes clearly lift this product to a level above all existing small racing gearboxes.

Quality: For the first time ever, a gearbox for this level of racing is produced at Hewland`s main factory. This is where the ultra high quality Champ car, World Rally and GT transmissions are built. All FTR components are to our new -visibly different- higher standards, that the world of F3 etc. had not seen before. Incredibly, the all new FTR gearbox is presented at a rock bottom price, ensuring that Hewland has the best product on all fronts.

FTR is a booming success in its first 2 seasons.
The FTR gearboxes have run with amazing reliability, performance and low running costs. Hewland is proud to have launched another winning product, selling over 700 FTR gearboxes in the first four years.

Quote from z3r0c00l :

When you or your associates have to repair the transmission/drive/engine yourself if it goes wrong, it pays to look after them, and the time you lose is negligable with practice. There is always something good to be said for mechanically sympathetic drivers.

That's what I suspected and good to hear it from someone with experience. Until transmission damage is implemented in LFS, there won't be any reason to use the clutch on cars like the FBM. Unless you're like me and want to drive it like the real thing (even though it probably makes me slower.:shy Since X30 came out, I stopped using the clutch on the FOX and FBM, but I think I will start again, if that's how it's supposed to be done. I need to practice heel-toe more, anyway.

Quote from ultrataco :

That's what I suspected and good to hear it from someone with experience. Until transmission damage is implemented in LFS, there won't be any reason to use the clutch on cars like the FBM. Unless you're like me and want to drive it like the real thing (even though it probably makes me slower.:shy Since X30 came out, I stopped using the clutch on the FOX and FBM, but I think I will start again, if that's how it's supposed to be done. I need to practice heel-toe more, anyway.

And can't forget to mention the fact that it's alot more rewarding to drive it like it's supposed to instead of abusing the game mechanics.

Quote from ultrataco :

If no clutch was needed, wouldn't there be an automatic clutch and throttle cut/blip when shifting? Or are sequential gearbox transmissions built to withstand the constant abuse?

No if no clutch was needed the clutch (which is still conventionally installed on production racing cars) will remain engaged during a shift, hence it's a clutchless gearshift

Auto-blip and cut systems are separate, operating via the ECU either controlling throttle inputs or ignition. The actual gearboxes are not designed to take the abuse but you'll probably find the engine goes first. As I have explained countless times over the last couple of days it's impossible to do a flat clutchless upshift anyway IRL.

Quote from z3r0c00l :

Someone could give Colin Reynolds an email: [email protected]

He's the technical queries guy at Hewland Engineering, who make the gearbox on the FBM.

Hewland wouldn't want to give you a definitive answer, quite rightly because it depends on the use it's in and driving technique, but the truth of the matter is it's designed to allow fully clutchless shifts when treated properly as is the LD200 H-gate 'box, although that requires much higher driving standards to be worthwhile and safe choosing to rev-match properly and not use the clutch.

The F-BMW uses a sequential gearbox, with it you can, in real-life as well as in LFS, up/down-shift without the clutch.

I've driven a Formula Russell(older F-Mazda) that has a H-pattern Hewland gearbox, both up and down-shifts are possible with out the clutch and in my opinion a bit faster. I do repair them, because I'm in a mechanics program with Jim Russell(the reason I got to drive the car) and even if the wear is slightly more shifting with out the clutch they seem to hold up just fine. The same goes for the new F3/4G63(?) car we are currently assembling/testing, clutchless up and downshifts with its Hewland sequential are common practice. I'm not sure exactly what gearbox is in the F-BMW but my guess is the same shifting techniques apply. Like ajp71 mentioned, rev-matching is extremely important.

A thought that just crossed my mind:
Since Scawen drove the FBM irl, I'd imagine he would have made it so that the clutch would kick in on downshifts for autoclutchers if clutching had been necessary on downshifts irl. However, for me personally the question still remains if there should be more of a benefit to using the FBM properly (=with blipping on downshifts).

But I'm just not enough of a technical person and unfortunately have no rL experience witha Formula BMW to judge.

Quote from mcintyrej :

Trail braking (i think i said that right) is done by applying the throttle while braking, somehow helping to stop the car better (i don't know the technicalities, it just works).

Quote from BlueFlame :

Oh, no Trail Braking is when you are braking with the engine and turning all in the same motion I believe,

Its OT now, but thought I'd just correct both statements - trail braking is simply keeping the brakes applied past the turn in point and gradually easing pressure on the pedal as you approach the apex.

It shortens the distance before the turn during which you need to apply the brakes and can induce some oversteer (this is what's meant by steering with the brakes). Amongst other things, keeping the throttle applied (AKA left foot braking) is a way of controlling that oversteer.

I've alread thrown this over the patch test forum, but for good measure:

Hewland Sequential Gearbox designers opinion on the best way to shift their boxes:

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Successful up-shifting, (defined as fast and non dog-damaging) will be achieved by fully moving the dog ring as rapidly as possible from one gear to the next, preferably with the engine's driving load removed until the shift is completed. (The opposite is true of a synchromesh gearbox as used in passenger cars, where slow movement helps). It should be remembered that it is not possible to damage the dogs when fully engaged (in gear). The damage can only take place when initiating contact during a shift, (the `danger zone`) therefore this element must be made as short as possible. If a driver moves the gear lever slowly, or if the linkage is not rigid and effective, dog wear will occur. We always recommend lightweight yet solid rod linkage, not cables ideally.

I list below the different methods of up-shifting that are used in racing most commonly. The best at the top, the worst at the bottom:

Automated (semi automated). The movement of the dog ring is powered and the engine is cut / re-instated in a co-ordinated manner. Gear-shifts take milliseconds. This system produces zero dog wear when set up well. It is not applicable to most cars, but it illustrates that speed of shift is a good thing.

Manual with engine cut. This system is almost as good as an automated one as long as the driver pulls the lever very quickly. Again it is not applicable to many cars, but it illustrates that speed of shift is a good thing. A `cheat` version of this is to shift on the engine rev limiter, which can work well. With this system it is especially important to move the lever ultra fast, otherwise the engine will be reinstated during partial dog engagement, causing damage. The damage can usually be felt by the driver.

Manual.
Best method: With no assistance from the engine management, the driver must lift off the throttle sufficiently to allow the dog ring to be pulled out of engagement. He should then stay off the throttle long enough to allow the dog ring to engage with the next gear. In practice, the driver can move the gear lever faster than he can move his foot off and back on to the throttle. Therefore the effective method is to apply load to the gear lever with your hand and then lift the throttle foot off and back on to the pedal as fast as physically possible. In lifting your foot, the loaded gear lever will almost involuntarily flick to the next gear before the foot is re-applied to the throttle.
Another method is to load the gear lever with your hand, stay flat on the throttle and dab the clutch to release the dog ring. The overall effect on the gear shift is similar to the above method, but clutch wear may become a big issue.
The worst method (most destructive and definitely slowest) is to attempt to change gear in a `passenger car / synchromesh` way, i.e. lifting off the throttle, dipping the clutch, moving the gear lever, letting the clutch up and re-instating the throttle. The method causes unnecessary clutch wear, does absolutely nothing to help come out of gear and usually causes dog wear whilst engaging the next gear. This wear is due to several reasons. Firstly, it is impossible for a driver to co-ordinate the complicated sequence of all five physical movements accurately. Consequently the engagement dogs often find themselves engaging whilst the throttle is applied. The lever is usually pulled more slowly as it was not pre-loaded, lengthening the `danger zone`.

Successful down-shifting, has similar rules applied regarding speed of shift. Unloading the dogs is done in the opposite manner obviously. Whilst braking, the dogs must be unloaded by either touching the throttle pedal or- my preferred method- by dipping the clutch. However, one sharp dab of clutch or throttle is appropriate per shift. Continued pressure on either will cause dog damage for different reasons. `Blipping the throttle` just before engagement is advisable if the rev drops between gears are over 1300 rpm, as this will aid engagement and stabilise the car.

This is a subject which can be much expended on, but I feel that these are the basics, which I hope are of use.

Now that's a comprehensive guide to proper sequential shifting!

Missed that on the other thread, thx a lot!

Looks like the old pre-select system was kind of half-way there after all!

Now we all need force-feedback shifters