Quote from andybarsblade :

I feel like players who dont have a g25 are being shafted.

Peh. I drive with a DFP and the new gearbox behaviour is perfectly reasonable on that setup. I even drive with a button clutch now and I'm having a blast.

As far as I've been able to gather what people are arguing is that having to lift their right foot while not needing to push down their left foot on the clutch is somehow unrealistic. Honestly people. If that's the problem, put a tennis ball beside your pedals and stomp on that every time you change gear or something. Your argument is so beyond silly I might just go out and shoot myself from rage.

Quote from J.B. :

I'm interested in the idea behind this one. People are already using positive camber on the front wheels to make the tryes work longer so making the tyres even hotter than they already are doesn't seem right to me. In LFS tyre overheating already plays a more important role than tyre wear which I don't think is the case in real racing.

I think the issue with the tires in LFS is the compound we're using are still ridiculously soft, all real life junior formulae I ever been around have had more issues getting heat in tires after ten minutes rather than them being too hot. Of course car setup and driver style plays a part but the fact the entire grid in lots of series can't get them hot for several laps and doesn't have an issue with overheating except in exceptional circumstances suggests that LFS uses much softer compounds than are used in the control tires such series run IRL, I'd of thought LFS R1/R2 tires are much closer to hillclimb type compounds. R3 and R4 give much more realistic heating for small single seater tires.

As for the camber, it's simply a positive camber adjustment, the overall camber of the car is still negative. IRL most cars use the maximum camber permitted in the rules and would use more if they could just to get heat into the tires.

Quote :

I'm just guessing this is perhaps an attempt to achieve the "one or two fast laps" effect that we see in real racing? In reality the reason new tyres drop off suddenly is not because they overheat but because when they are brand new and get heated up for the first time chemical reactions take place in the rubber compound that cause extra grip.

Brand new tires are crap, profesional teams will not normally race on fresh tires, they'll either be scrubbed in on a machine or at least do a few testing laps before they're used. Real tires are rated over heat cycles, they will usually be best over the first two or three heat cycles following scrubbing in, after that the tires are still usable but not quite as good so a lot of tires are sold on (third hand tires going from a race with a professional team to a serious amateur to a club racer with a limited wallet are not unheard of).

Quote from BlueFlame :

...

A real Formula BMW driver also only uses two pedals (except to pull away), wouldn't you say they were an effing
retard if they came back in and complained to their engineer that they didn't like having to lift the throttle because having two pedals made it feel like an automatic?

When you engage the clutch, you can keep your footflat on the throttle and change gear. So, there should be some options, allowing me to do this without a clutch pedal.

Quote from BlueFlame :

When you engage the clutch, you can keep your footflat on the throttle and change gear. So, there should be some options, allowing me to do this without a clutch pedal.

where?, where IRL can you change gear while keeping your foot flat on the throttle?.

Clutch or not, you can't do this without causing some major damage.

Quote from BlueFlame :

you can't blame anyone for wanting problems smoothed out, it's not the fact it's something new at all, if that was the case me and Bandit would hate the FBM.

The thing is, this is not a problem. You guys are just making it out to be one.

This really is not that difficult, and it's much more realistic this way. Let off the gas, shift, get back on the gas. Why is this so hard?

Quote from BlueFlame :

When you engage the clutch, you can keep your footflat on the throttle and change gear. So, there should be some options, allowing me to do this without a clutch pedal.

There already is an option for that. Button clutch.

Quote from thenoob :

I just play the new patch and I'm happy to see that I can try the new BMW formula in the demo! This is a great thing! But I have to say that I am disappointed by the auto injection cut-off aspect, and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one. I do not agree with your vision. It IS a tiptronic-alike since you can select "sequential" as a gear mode in the options. I mean, I know that cars with H shifter don't have an auto cut-off circuit, but when "sequential" mode is selected, the car has to be considered as a 'with a tiptronic shifter' one. Otherwise leaving the sequential mode (or the automatic, where the car will obviously do everything by herself, including auto cut-off.) is a nonsense.

It's a tiptronic because you don't have the "H" shifter!, do you want to be forced to buy a G25 in order to play LFS? Than shut it... You want to be able not to lift the throttle while people with G25 and 3 pedals are forced to... You want to be quicker then them, while they are doing MUCH more work then you?! Just lif the damn throttle kids, stop whining or go play other games, jesus christ..

Quote from BlueFlame :

I completely agree Bandit, without a clutch, it's like you are in a car with automatic transmission, and taking your foot off the throttle which BTW, i might add NEEDS do be below 45% or so doesn't feel, look or act right. Linsen you sit here whining, as if we are asking for something really stupid i'm sure bandit(aswell as i) can blip on downchange if we wanted to just as much as cut the throttle, but it's like someone keeps switching my paddle shift off, It doesn't feel consistant enoug to me either, sometimes i can blip sometimes not, sometimes i can change gear othertimes not, and before i know it, i have a messed up clutch. Infact I did 20laps on SO6 cutting the throttle on every upchange, and just letting the engine dictate the revs on downdchanges as not to overrev with blip on downchange, and i STILL had a bust up clutch.

It's not me who is whining, I'm just annoyed at other people whining. And in fact, I am having tremendous problems getting the blip on downshift right in the FBM (not so much in the big GTRs for some reason), but I found out that downshifting works fine without blipping. So I'll stick to that for now under race conditions and work on my timing a little more. Right now, there's hardly a real disadvantage if you don't blip. And as for the whining about cutting on upshift (which was the main point of my post): It's frigging easy. I'm so mediocre at LFS that if I can do it, without burning the clutch, anyone who can't needs more practice. It's that simple.

I have to conceed however, that throttle cut and blip is harder to time right with flappy-paddles, I remember that from when I didn't have a DFP. But the amount of practice needed to get it right is certainly not unreasonable.

The main point is: LFS evolves and it does so basically how the devs want it to evolve. Sure, they always keep an eye on the community, but they determine the general direction and if you're not willing to adjust, you're out of luck I'm afraid.

Quote from BlueFlame :

So it someone modelled all the wheels as squares and you didn't like it, others said it was un-realistic, others didn't care but then it's YOUR fault you can't get used to it? Sure, it's not THAT similar even metaphorically, but you get the point, you can't blame anyone for wanting problems smoothed out, it's not the fact it's something new at all, if that was the case me and Bandit would hate the FBM.

If the FIA suddenly declared all tires must be square then it'd be something to consider if we wanted to replicate a future car. You can't just break the laws of physics when implementing a real design in a realistic simulation because it suits you.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Though I'd really like to see the effect you described, too. Is it really a chemical process that gives *more* grip for the first few laps, or is it rather the compound hardening due to the heat cycles you put into it that result in *less* grip after a few laps, with the grip loss levelling out after the rubber has "fully" hardened?

In very simple terms (because I'm stupid ) as I understand a 'heat cycle' is usually regarded as the period between the tire being cold going out on track getting hot then being completely rested again, the cooling being important as well. Simply fluctuating
the heat whilst racing isn't a heat cycle, IRL if you properly overheat tires then some black magic happens and they're buggered even when you let them cool down, just like the clutch we only have tire heat simulated in LFS atm so you can just park up with a set of overheated tires and you'll be fine, not so IRL. Of course it should also be noted that heat cycles are only relevant for determining the life of a tire if you're doing lots of quick burst of heat so wear isn't the limiting factor.

Quote from wien :

If that's the problem, put a tennis ball beside your pedals and stomp on that every time you change gear or something.

Thx for making me smile in a thread that is mainly irritating me.

Quote from danowat :

where?, where IRL can you change gear while keeping your foot flat on the throttle?.

well its easy go out in your car and do it now? i see race drivers do it all the time, aus V8 series do it

Erm Bluefame, your the one whining. Linsen's made a couple of posts expressing difficulty adapting to the new system (which most people are having as well) not just complaining because he can't cope with having to learn to do something properly.

Yes pressing the clutch will remove the load from the gearbox enabling you to change gear, it will also bugger your clutch in LFS and IRL it's not healthy for a freely revving engine to hit the rev limiter, nor would it do any of your transmission any good, when proper gearbox and driveshaft is added you'll soon find your car will be falling to bits if you drive it like you're trying to. For someone who claims to be a GPLer I'm really suprised at your attitude and (genuinely, no offense) think you'd be better off playing something else with the option to use more aids like RACE, because in LFS you have to do the driving

Quote from BlueFlame :

well its easy go out in your car and do it now? i see race drivers do it all the time, aus V8 series do it

Having looked at a couple of videos it does appear they are keeping there foot on the throttle and using a bit of clutch to shift, sounds like a sequential 'box and whatever it is it isn't gaining a large amount of engine revs like a freely spinning engine would so I'm certain they've got an ignition cut on them (wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to create an auto cut for an H-gate anyway).

EDIT - 4.04 'bloody gear cuts not working'

The fact I am 1 pedal missing puts it into perspective, alot of people now have G25, and it seems only the people that don't have a clutch pedal that are having difficulty adjusting, can you see why!? There should be an option allowing auto-cut at LEAST so us non clutch pedaler users can have fun. As for using the button clutch you must be joking, doesn't matter what button control rate you have it at, doesn't matter what GAME you are using, the only thing it is good for is dipping the clutch when you are bogged down, and even that is only effective in RX. Using the button clutch makes me significantly slower because even in race cars, i have to be off the throttle for at least 1-2 seconds before getting back on the throttle again otherwise i burn my clutch out. I am not doubting it's realistic for people WITH a clutch pedal, but for people without, it's more unrealistic than having auto-clutch anyway.

Quote from ajp71 :

As for the camber, it's simply a positive camber adjustment, the overall camber of the car is still negative.

I think I missed something there, can you explain it to me?

EDIT: Oh! I just checked the in game suspension view and 0.0° camber setting is infact quite a high negative setting! What's up with that? No wonder I've been having problems dealing with tyre temps. That may also change quite a few of the things I've said about tyres...

Quote from ajp71 :

Brand new tires are crap, profesional teams will not normally race on fresh tires, they'll either be scrubbed in on a machine or at least do a few testing laps before they're used.

Qualifying is always on brand new tyres.

I think there may be something to your idea that LFS tyres are too soft. in fact, isn't that just another way of saying that they heat uo too much?

Quote from BlueFlame :

The fact I am 1 pedal missing puts it into perspective, alot of people now have G25, and it seems only the people that don't have a clutch pedal that are having difficulty adjusting, can you see why!? There should be an option allowing auto-cut at LEAST so us non clutch pedaler users can have fun. As for using the button clutch you must be joking, doesn't matter what button control rate you have it at, doesn't matter what GAME you are using, the only thing it is good for is dipping the clutch when you are bogged down, and even that is only effective in RX. Using the button clutch makes me significantly slower because even in race cars, i have to be off the throttle for at least 1-2 seconds before getting back on the throttle again otherwise i burn my clutch out. I am not doubting it's realistic for people WITH a clutch pedal, but for people without, it's more unrealistic than having auto-clutch anyway.

Arrgggggghhhhhh, shut it already, it's the same for all!!! And it's harder for the G25 users who uses the clutch pedal, think with your head for a change...

Quote from thenoob :

Being forced to buy a g25 it's not the point.
The point is why a driving aid is so important while others aren't?
The auto clutch, the automatic gear and also the sequential gear on an H shifter are all "not realistic" driving aids (which is a GOOD thing! Because LFS is a GAME. A game focused on realism, sure, but as a game it can't be 100% realistic).
I don't understand why an aid like the auto cut-off is considered such baaad thing when an automatic gear (i.e.) is not.

P.S. I'm not whining, I'm only expressing my opinions on this test-patch.

You're right.

Scawen, please remove the auto-shift option as well.

just to clarify: I am not talking about the FBM. Maybe some of you haven't driven the "old" cars with the new system.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

It's a tiptronic because you don't have the "H" shifter!, do you want to be forced to buy a G25 in order to play LFS? Than shut it... You want to be able not to lift the throttle while people with G25 and 3 pedals are forced to... You want to be quicker then them, while they are doing MUCH more work then you?! Just lif the damn throttle kids, stop whining or go play other games, jesus christ..

boy, I normally don't boast about this, but as you accuse us of being uncapable and wanting an advantage over "real" shifters: I have been driving for years with throttle-blipping, heal-toeing and double-declutching in real life - and it's even fun.
But, yeah, probably LFS is more realistic than the real cars I drove, that's why I can't handle it in this 'sim'.
Not to mention that it felt more realistic as it was. Now it's an unrealistic (i'm not talking about FBM here), akward combination of wannabe-realism and something that once worked pretty fine.

Quote from Linsen :

I have to conceed however, that throttle cut and blip is harder to time right with flappy-paddles, I remember that from when I didn't have a DFP. But the amount of practice needed to get it right is certainly not unreasonable.

that's a good point. not that I agree at all, but it's good you mentioned it: I would NEVER practice this procedure. Simply because it's (be it because of hard- or software) too far away from reality. As I mentioned above: I can beautifully get along with these techniques in RL - but in LFS it's a whole different story. With a G25 it might at least be funny in a non-competitive situation but with a standard wheel it's nothing more than (sorry for repeating it again) an additional hassle - it just doesn't feel anything closer to the real thing than having the software do it.

And you're all right: liftig the foot in a (what I now call semi-)tiptronic-system isn't a hard thing to do - it just doesn't fit into the/my picture. And finally I really miss the automatic throttle-blip, but I won't do it manually for the reasons stated above - it's akward and would destroy more of the immersion than having no blip at all.

Last but not least, consequently, if the "sequential" gearbox option is destroyed like that, it should be removed together with the automatic gear box. Wouldn't make me happy, but the current sequential gearbox doesn't either.

Quote from BlueFlame :

...

I can't understand your logic, in the race cars you should never touch the clutch except to start, that's it, the gearbox is designed to not require a clutch input and the clutch on a sequential shift racing car is not designed to take the abuse of a normal road clutch. If you can't make the car shift without using the clutch you're doing something wrong (ie. not lifting). For the road cars just use auto-clutch it's still faster and all you have to do is manage the throttle so not to burn the clutch out. A G25 user has to deal with another pedal and has to operate the throttle and brake with one foot, it's not as if they can't damage their clutch as easily.

A two pedal setup is still faster and more consistent in practice than a 3 pedal setup, I'm not sure whether there is currently too large
a concession for 2 pedal users (I am one) in road cars seeing as you can't make a mistake and don't have to heel and toe maybe your shifts should be slower, but atm it at least means being fast in LFS isn't elitist.

I only have 2 pedals and paddles. I'm happy about the changes, they seem to be at a realistic enough speed in each car (although I'm curious about whether there's a minimum time limit for clutch disengagement in road cars, if I rigged up a system with a manual clutch on an axis, could I do "insta-shifts"?). If I lift briefly I don't mess the clutch up at all. I would be very worried about my car if the clutch started slipping wildly under normal driving conditions after a simple bit of low speed manouvering, though.

I'll sum up my experience:
+all changes :lovies3d:

Except:
- My beloved FZ50 doesn't feel the same at all (mostly the engine)
- :cry: I so loved (the unrealistic) F11 menu, made setup tuning so much faster. :cry:

To work on:
When I overheat the clutch in my car it sticks until I overload it, then it slips and I have to lower revs alot to get it to stick again (more like a tyre than the current torque limiter implementation). With this behaviour it would be easier to nurse a bad clutch until it cools down again, since you could notice the difference between grip/slip. But I havn´t overheated a race clutch.

-
On the speedo removal I say: It's easier to remember gear and high/low/mid-revs than gear + speed. So thats the method Im using to avoid overshooting it in the turns.
-
Soon comes Y-mas with nice gift from Scawen, Eric & Victor

Great work Scawen.

If you folks allow me, I think I need to indicate the three changes that I don't quite agree with for the following reasons.

1. Engines are no longer repaired in pit stops

I don't quite agree with that because pit stops are used for repairs in real life racing. In racing, engine repairs are a priority. You can't win races with a faulty engine. Also, by deleting that, it will eliminate some drivers from racing, think about it, those who are learning to handle their cars. Quite unfair, if you ask me.

2. Dashboard fuel displays now shown as % instead of litres

Well, a % of fuel doesn't quite tell you when you may need to refuel. While it does translate to the % used per lap at a constant speed, it doesn't reflect the usage if you slow down to conserve fuel. This is something you see after you make your pit stop.

3. Removed digital speedo option - now depends on type of car

Now, folks, I have a high resolution screen and I also wear glasses. I can't see the accuracy in an analog speedometer and my only solution is the digital. Some speedometers are so small in LFS that they are rendered useless. This feature should be put back in if nothing else, to make the game "user friendly".

Everything else is great stuff. thanks for the hard work!!!

Thanks for listening folks.

Jim

Quote from Linsen :

I have to conceed however, that throttle cut and blip is harder to time right with flappy-paddles, I remember that from when I didn't have a DFP. But the amount of practice needed to get it right is certainly not unreasonable.

Hi
Can you let me know how to do this? I have been trying but I don't get a blip no matter what I do.
Thanks

Scawen must really hate the drifters.:clapclap:

Quote from Indiana Jim :

Great work Scawen.

If you folks allow me, I think I need to indicate the three changes that I don't quite agree with for the following reasons.

1. Engines are no longer repaired in pit stops

I don't quite agree with that because pit stops are used for repairs in real life racing. In racing, engine repairs are a priority. You can't win races with a faulty engine. Also, by deleting that, it will eliminate some drivers from racing, think about it, those who are learning to handle their cars. Quite unfair, if you ask me.

The only engine damage that LFS currently has is dropped cylinders. That sort of damage is not something that could be fixed during a pit stop.

I would be all for allowing engines to be fixed in the pits, but it should require multiple hours, just like real life. The only place this would currently be at all useful is the multi-hour endurance races.