Erm, drive less aggresively all the time then!

And if it starts to slip, you do a few slower laps to let it cool (not using full throttle) and it'll grip again. Then it's fine, and will cool gradually.

Personally, I'm a bit saddened we can even see it at all on the F9/10 overlays, but I guess that's something Scawen wants to keep for the time being as 'proof' of the physics engine.

@ Dudles:
Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a "simulator" ?

It's nice to watch it, but that's just because I know how I drive manuals.. not good lol, I've only been given the chance 3 times, years appart each time. The last manual car I drove, a diesel Jetta however I could easily tell if I burned out the clutch.. besides the smell lol.

I hope we see clutch damage though, that is just as important as clutch temperature. The temp can always go down, but you can't replace something that is broken deep inside the engine.


I tell you what though, I hooked up my ACT Labs H shifter yesterday and it is so much fun!
Now it is actually worth the $80 I spent on it!

WHERE'S ALL MY SETUPS GONE???????? 8(

I moved them all from settings to setup but none of them come up? What gives?????

Venus

Quote from AndroidXP :

*sigh*
You're NOT supposed to use the clutch AT ALL in the FBM, apart from the race start.

So how should one change gear in the FBM?

Honestly, someone should make a post that lists all the cars and how one should change gears, because I'm well confused now.

Quote from XCNuse :

@ Dudles:
Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a "simulator" ?

It's nice to watch it, but that's just because I know how I drive manuals.. not good lol, I've only been given the chance 3 times, years appart each time. The last manual car I drove, a diesel Jetta however I could easily tell if I burned out the clutch.. besides the smell lol.

I hope we see clutch damage though, that is just as important as clutch temperature. The temp can always go down, but you can't replace something that is broken deep inside the engine.


I tell you what though, I hooked up my ACT Labs H shifter yesterday and it is so much fun!
Now it is actually worth the $80 I spent on it!

here in Brazil, i can say 75% of the cars in streets are manuals... so i have driven an Auto gearbox, the same times you've driven Manual ones... and i KNOW how to drive Manuals, both cars at home are manuals, and i drive pretty much everyday, and i say that the clutch don't go boiling in the track like this... I've been on the track at trackdays for an entire day, the clutch wasn't brand new as LFS one is supposed to be when you're starting the race, and it's still running well... no slip at all, and it wasn't like only one day at the track... so i'm saying that it IS an unreal overheat... and because of that, it should be monitored... you have no monitors in a ROAD CAR, but in the race cars, there are monitors even couting how many times you fart in a lap.

Quote from Bandit77 :

(...)

There's obviously no point in arguing about feel, so it would probably be wise to leave it at that.

However, what makes it so hard to understand your point for me is, that you say LFS's road cars don't feel right, because they're operated different from rL. Thing is, the way you operate the road cars in LFS now with autoclutch is the exact same way you operate the FBM, which, and that's the important point, is operated in LFS exactly as it would be operated in rL. Sure you could now argue that the FBM should have a tiptronic also, but not by the same logic you deploy for the road cars. So, imho, at that point your whole line of argumentation collapses.

Unless, of course, the FBM feels perfectly fine for you, which I seriously doubt. But if it does, you might just as well pretend the road cars to use the same sequential gear box as the FBM, as you could pretend the road cars to use some kind of tiptronic (which they don't).

Quote from Venus :

WHERE'S ALL MY SETUPS GONE???????? 8(

I moved them all from settings to setup but none of them come up? What gives?????

Venus

have to rename them to there 3 letter car name. UF 1000_blahblah to, UF1_blahblah

Quote from ste_ :

So how should one change gear in the FBM?

Honestly, someone should make a post that lists all the cars and how one should change gears, because I'm well confused now.

Here you go

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=34985

Quote from Franke :

For me to be able to check, what you are saying, i need to be viewing the F9 or F10, and then i don't see the standings... And yes i do know that its only a push of a button away, but clutch getting RED is a race killer, so it would be nice to know its getting critical BEFORE it gets critical...

IRL you check a little bar to see if you're slipping the clutch too much? The only indication you might get before (but probably after) the slip becomes noticeable would be a burning smell and smoke, easily added with an InSim app that turns your PCs fans off, equally real repair bills for getting it wrong

Quote from Bandit77 :

even if I had one of these, THAT doesn't make the difference. having two pedals and an UP-DOWN-lever is still a tiptronic-layout. you don't seem to get my point.

Given that logic we should ban all keyboards, mice, joysticks and combined axis wheels. The road cars in LFS have a 3 pedal H-gate layout, LFS makes certain compensations to help make it drivable without too much hardware. You simply bark at it when you fancy changing gear and LFS will do the clutch and shift for you, likewise in a sequential the computer will feel for the right point to shift for you. Having a throttle and brake are prerequisites to being able to drive any car so there's an expectation that you have to provide those inputs and there is no reason why you should have an aid for them. If you really can't cope with manually blipping then you can give up any aspirations to drive anything but some modern GT cars, most cars with a sequential gearbox do not have an automatic blip because before it's a viable option you need to have a responsive digital throttle.

Quote :

So having the exact temperature is as unrealistic as having displayed 12 tyre temperatures in a hatchback while in race... BUT I don't care about these things left in, because if I don't want to I don't have to use / look at them.

Hopefully the tire temps will only be available in pitstops (and maybe offline and in replays), I think most of us have grasped the concept that they work, now they just offer an unrealistic aid, which whilst we have it's pretty hard not to look at.

I've been picking through this thread a bit mostly looking at stuff people have said about clutches.

I'm doing quite well out of it personally. By simply lifting off the throttle for gearshifts I seem to gain a lot of speed on certain people later in the race. No idea why. Oh no, wait, it's because my clutch isn't overheated and theirs is.

The only time I've managed to overheat a clutch accidentally was pulling away from a spin in second without thinking about all that clutch slipping that was going on. After that I made nice clean, non-aggressive shifts for a while and eventually the clutch cooled enough to go aggressive again. I simply don't see how you can overheat the clutch in 2 laps if you're doing it even vaguely right.

That's IMO of course.

Quote from srdsprinter :

My guess is that it is a smart plan for the dev's if infact this car/game are going to be used in conjunction for some upcoming tv show/driver search. The publicity will get more traffic, and give potential LFS buyers a much more focused view of what they are getting. Also whether or not they are going to be happy with buying LFS.

Its easy to imagine that many many traditional simmers and potential LFS buyers get turned away from LFS after trying the demo in its current state of drift-anarchy. It also certainly adds to why LFS is sometimes called the drift-sim.

Either way, very smart idea IMO.

Yes, I don't think there's any problem revealing the thinking behind this. We had some time ago talked about replacing the XRT with the FOX in the demo, the idea being that it gives a more balanced view of what LFS is about. You now have a mixed car class (XFG / XRG) and a single seater. We also removed the reversed configurations, as the demo is supposed to show some good things so people can decide if they want to buy a license, it's not intended as permanent free entertainment, though we don't object to people using the demo for a long time.

Anyway, when the V1 show came along and their request for us to add a Formula BMW, with Jay at V1 already having discussed this a bit with a contact at BMW, we thought, this would be a great car for the demo, better even than the FOX as it's a bit slower and more of a starter class. We saw that our old plan could be improved. Also this coincided very nicely with V1's basic requirement that entry to V1 is free. It's a show trying to get a racer without the requirement that he is rich and can afford to fund his own career. So for V1 entrants to use LFS, it should be free.

Well that's it, discussions with BMW Motorsport went ahead and they allowed us to build the Formula BMW. It helps LFS because of the improvement to the demo, and it helps BMW Motorsport due to that bit more publicity for the Formula. Fortec (where V1 is based) gave us access to see the real thing and even drive it, as you know.

Concerning the clutch, I think we have people on both extremes of this issue. Half of the people are saying that the clutch lasts just fine if you don't abuse it (which is true), the other half says that the clutch slips too easily (IMO, also true).

I think there is something fundamentally wrong with the way that LFS is modeling clutch slip. It's fairly easy to see even in the lowly XRT. During a 1->2 powershift, the tires chirp a bit, then grab. As soon as they grab the clutch starts slipping until the speed differential between how fast the engine is turning and how fast the rest of the drivetrain is turning is resolved. In real life the clutch would be the stronger of the two (having more "grip") and the tires would be forced to spin. For the race clutches, this would be even more true since they often have thousands of foot pounds of clamping force.

The way that you usually burn up a clutch is from slipping it too much. You can burn up a clutch with just a few improper launches (slipping the clutch to keep from bogging the engine off the line) or from "holding" the car on a hill using the clutch. But the clutch should not slip when the pedal is not depressed. Either the tires slip or the engine changes RPM to match the drivetrain.

I think that modeling clutch heat is very important to simulate reality, but the clutch - right now - doesn't have nearly enough force. It should easily overpower the tires and/or the engine, and that's not currently the case. Right now LFS is modeling the clutch as the weak link when, in reality, it's the strongest (compared to the grip of the tires or the torque of the engine). If Scawen can fix this I think both of the groups I mentioned would be happy. Clutch wear would be appropriately modeled, cars could stall, but clutches wouldn't burn up just from a few mis-shifts.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Upon further thought it would work the opposite of the way I thought - my thought was to dynamically change the inertia constantly between firings to simulate compression at lower RPMs, but then theoretically inerita would drop dramtically during a compression, allowing the engine to stall during a compression, but then of course it's braking torque would actually decrease from the standpoint of the drivetrain; which is the opposite of what would really happen. So it wouldn't work anyway. It would from the perspective of the engine but not the rest of the system.

I don't think LFS simulates compression at this point, it treats the engine as a revolving mass with static properties. I forgot to test the G meter view when trying to stall the car last night to see if there is in fact pulses (firings).

There is plenty of inertia per se in the race cars, I think now it's just a limit of the current LFS engine simulation as far as I can tell. The engine's inertia isn't really the fundamental issue since that's really just based on some masses/velocities, and not the things that really cause the resistance in a real engine. Inertia would be the effective subject for an engine revolving with no compression resistance.

Yes, fiddling the figures isn't really going to help much at this point. LFS engines really need a whole new simulation. I look forward to doing that.

What you have now is the same old engine model, just with more engine inertia than before and a modified torque curve at the bottom so they are more like real engines and can stall. The other change was the redlines which are lower and in most of the naturally aspirated cars, not far above the maximum power point, as you would find in most modern sporty engines.

As you say, they don't simulate the individual firings at the moment, their power comes from a calculated torque curve creating an effect similar to reality but not detailed and interesting enough to be how we'd like it to be in the end. The same goes for the turbo simulation of course. And the clutch will be worked on at some point as well. LFS just gradually gets more and more detailed as time goes on.

Anway that's not for Patch Y of course, Patch Y must we out in good time before Christmas, so it'll just be a case of fixing the bugs with the AI and the tyre changing when pitting, etc... there are several bugs on my sheet, I haven't missed any and I won't repeat them here! That would take ages!

Quote from gatebil94 :

why f1 car ?? make more drift cars!

its not a f1 car.... and its Live for Speed, not Live for Drift k?

The only problem thats disturbing many people when they hear about it is that The XRT will be unavailable..

Yes, Scawen was kind and gave demo users the FB02...

but.. the XRT is more popular, people have setups for it..

also why have an amazing car, I mean, Really, you should have the FB02 available in S1, and leave the XRT for demo.. since its been there since way back...

Also, having a new car means more people will want to buy LFS, switching it will not help...

Seriously, think about it... I'd leave the XRT... and make the FB02 avail if you have S1.. or S2 if you bought the whole thing ..

Ok, so some of you don't care about demo users... well then.. how do you think people join? by trying out the demo of course! and If you have veteran demo users thinking about buying LFS... and now they can't use their favorite setups,, well thats just bad...

I honestly hope Scawen switches it back.. unless he wants people to sign a petition for it.. lol

Please return the XRT, and let those who paid for LFS enjoy the FB02...

Nick

Quote from UruNico2641 :

also why have an amazing car, I mean, Really, you should have the FB02 available in S1, and leave the XRT for demo.. since its been there since way back...

Scawen has already explained this - the FB02 has to be part of the demo, that was part of the deal that got the car into LFS.

The XRT is also too difficult for total newbies to drive properly anyway, so it's not really ideal demo content. Except for "career" demo drivers who should really be converted to S2 sales by now anyway.

Quote from UruNico2641 :

The only problem thats disturbing many people when they hear about it is that The XRT will be unavailable..

Yes, Scawen was kind and gave demo users the FB02...

but.. the XRT is more popular, people have setups for it..

also why have an amazing car, I mean, Really, you should have the FB02 available in S1, and leave the XRT for demo.. since its been there since way back...

Also, having a new car means more people will want to buy LFS, switching it will not help...

Seriously, think about it... I'd leave the XRT... and make the FB02 avail if you have S1.. or S2 if you bought the whole thing ..

Ok, so some of you don't care about demo users... well then.. how do you think people join? by trying out the demo of course! and If you have veteran demo users thinking about buying LFS... and now they can't use their favorite setups,, well thats just bad...

I honestly hope Scawen switches it back.. unless he wants people to sign a petition for it.. lol

Please return the XRT, and let those who paid for LFS enjoy the FB02...

Nick

You are missing the point. Before X30 many LFS demo-ers stuck with it with no real intention to buy S2 because they could drift in the XRT. The demo is intended to be a taster for S2, not a free game.

As has been said, the demo now reflects more accurately what LFS is about, and gives demo users more of an incentive to buy. Personally, I think Scavier have been more than kind with demo content thus far.

The devs need to eat, you know...

Quote from Scawen :

Well that's it, discussions with BMW Motorsport went ahead and they allowed us to build the Formula BMW. It helps LFS because of the improvement to the demo, and it helps BMW Motorsport due to that bit more publicity for the Formula. Fortec (where V1 is based) gave us access to see the real thing and even drive it, as you know.

I'm just curious to know how do the Avon and Bridgestone track adverts and tyre brand choices fit into this story? Or is that a separate unrelated thing? Is there any further connection with them like the providing of data which could be of advantage to LFS or did they just don't mind the use of their brands in LFS?

Just been tryin the patch!

OK. I'm seriously angry!!!

FOX: What on earth were you thinking??? You've crippled it. Ok fair enough take off 1/2 a second from it if u needed, but normally at AS2 in fox my PB is 100.85 (.65 off WR). Now the damn thing won't get past a 103 and it feels like you killed it. It's lost all its joy, all it's fun. Going for realism? Sure, fair enough, but any real car will rev up way past its redline, but you've put a limiter in now, that kills the engine at 7.5k. Dammit, I hate it!!!
For this reason, and this reason alone, I'll not be updating to S3 when it arrives. You may think I'll get used to it, but I won't, cause you've done the same to all the other cars.

I'm all for realism, but there comes a point where you kill all the fun, and you've just done that! I don't pay my hard earned money for something, only to have it ruined, and that's exactly how I feel.

As for the speedo, I don't really care (though on my computer, 1024x768 res) the dials are not readable. You'd made such a brilliant product, and I even got one of my mates to buy it. Damned if I know why you want to act like a killjoy. If you've got a super-realism kick, fine then don't inflict us with it.

As for the view. It seems now I have only one choise, look 45 deg, which means I miss seeing someone moving over on me, until he's hit me. Damn silly thing to do. OPTIONS PEOPLE< OPTIONS!!! Would it kill you?

Am I angry? You bet. I've always been overjoyed with LFS, but the way this patch seems to be going, it seems your bent on ruining it!

The AI are a big improvement, though I'd hoped you'd fixed their crash happiness, and addressed thier problems in getting stuck (in sand last corner AS2 - the race I'm just running has over 10 cars stuck in that section) - that's the time they need to be able to reset themselves.

OK. I'm done venting. For gods sake Scawen, please get rid of this stupid engine rev limitation. I bought this product, and have been practising for months and months and months to finally get close to WR, and now just when I do, you step in, and negate all that effort, and kill the best car in LFS. Seriously considering uninstalling LFS for good!!!

Venus B-(
As for the clutch, it's hopelessly too weak.

This

Quote from Venus :

I'm all for realism

plus

Quote :

<the rest of your post>

equals
"I really don't care about realism"
with the slight side note of
"WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

lol


BTW, nice evolution (imo)

I think that Realism is the biggest goal of LFS. I don't know why those people are actually whining about.

Quote from Venus :

Seriously considering uninstalling LFS for good!!!

Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

Seriously, get a grip. LFS isn't designed around you, the rev limits affect EVERYONE, not just you and who cares about your time; everyone has to deal with it.

If you're willing to abandon LFS over such trivial silly things, then you need some prozac. Anger management classes may help as well. Also, if you actually read any of these threads before going off like a 2 year old who dropped his lollypop, you'd know that Scawen is not done with the AI yet.

The other annoying thing, is the fox and fxr aren't much of a challenge anymore. The chicane in the fox at as2 was a beautifully technical corner, but now I even reduced my wing down to 1/3 from 3/5 and still it would go thru flat, with total ease. Before, it always skipped and skidded a little, with just slight instabilty, that was gorgeous. Now, even with 1/3 wing, it goes thru it like its on rails. The FXR is the same. Talking to people on servers who race fox who have tried it, seems many of those don't like it either.

I'm not interesting in kissing ur butt like alot here, so you get what I really think. Take of it what you will...

Jeez talk about good way to ruin a damn good program.

As for those comments, I don't give a damn what you think... I paid my $ for it, I have a right to tell him I think his patch sux...

Quote from AndroidXP :

This

plus

equals
"I really don't care about realism"
with the slight side note of
"WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"