Quote from CTito :

For example, I abandoned LFS and went race on GTR2, it's much more developed (physically) that the LFS. The rain, the time, the temperature... When we'll have it on LFS? On 2009?

Wait - you are confusing terms here. Truly dynamic weather (which is not what it is in any simbin sim afaik), day-night transition and temperature variations are not what people would refer to as physics in a sim. If it takes til 2009 for LFS to have that stuff... well.. then that's what it takes. *shrug*

Quote from CTito :

On 2009 the Simbin will launch GTR3, and the Blimey are launching "Ferrari Project" next year, look at the graphics, the physics, and maybe the better multiplayer (LFS has the B.E.S.T multiplayer I've ever seen BY WHILE).

The only thing to look at is the hype, the (occassionally heavily-edited) screenshots and the lack of non-edited videos. As soon as you enter the setup screen of a sim that has sliders for setting the force feedback effects for kerbs or "brake vibration" then you surely must know there's something wrong happening.

Quote :

LFS is DX8, isn't it?

Yup - and quality-wise it surely puts to shame many of the dx9 supporting sims out there (who don't really seem to use any of the techs that justify dx9 to start with). Amazing what a small dev-team can do with such "retro" technology isn't it?

Quote from jug :

never change a winning team

Best argument to win and end this pointless conversation.

I think that if we forged the new ideas behing the new possible developer members we could actually get some good points out.

New team members could just be as "slaves". By that I mean that Scawen, Eric and Victor would just give (lets say 3) new members some goals that they need to finish.
They can't bring they own views to the project and they just do the job they are asked to so the game can be finished more quickly.

And I think the community is giving Scawen, Eric and Victor plenty of usefull suggestions about the future of the game

The main reason will be to retain artistic control and design continuity.

Scawen does the programming. That means everything in the sim is the way he wants it in the order he wants it, in the place he wants it, with the notes he wants.

If you add someone else, they'll have their own way of coding, their own style and methods. And then Scawen would be completely reliant on that person to find and change anything that needed altered.

Large team with hundreds of emplyees? EA? Blockbuster games? Wtf? You surely not over-exaggerating just to backup your opinion?

I'm eager to hear a single reason why similar persons like Scawen, who has a passion for this thing, wouldn't be (only) good thing for the game. There aren't similar guys? (Oh, here comes the Scawen=God cult? ) Guys like Todd Wasson or just regular sim gamers who happen to know lots of about tyre physics, like Niels. For just an example.

My theory is that the devs never expected the game to be this big. They are probably thinking that it could be too late for that anyway - they have successfully managed to make it this far with the current team, and now they are too "stubborn" (in a positive way too) to let the team grow or accept 3rd party help in a larger way than just including DaveWS's sounds. Think what we could have by now if we had several "Scawens" working on the game instead of only one.

Where is the fire?
Why are some people so keen on getting a game full of bugs and errors?

I think the reason why ScaViEr is kept small is that they want to make a good sim. Not some halfarsed patchwork of a bug infested game.

Yes, if there were more people the patches might be more frequent. But there would be far more bugs and errors. Do you really want frequent bug fixes instead of the infrequent additions to the physics engine and new content?

One other positive effect of a small team is that it's easier to make schedules fit.

Look at Windows for an example. There were how many coders working on 98? How stable and bug free was it? How late was it?

Edit: Cloning isn't that fast and it's illegal to clone humans. So no Scawen MK2 in a while yet.

Quote from hugoluis :

The development team of Live for Speed could be hundreds of people!

Then three people less (LFS Devs) wouldn't make any difference. Why don't you just leave LFS alone, take the remaining hundreds of people and establish your own project? Oh, wait, there already is a racing simulation with hundreds of developers http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=125970

I posted only a suggestion from my point of view, that is left of my imagination, and I wanted to know how it would be with hundreds of people in development, but I already was answered by ajp71, I am not angry with the work of them, indeed it is the best simulator in the world! It is the only simulator that I like and play, why would I leave it?

If a moderator lock the topic I am grateful, my question has already been answered.

Thanks

Quote from CTito :

I've never seen a small car (XFG) that simply DOESN'T TURN, only DRIFT. Take an Opel Corsa or Ford Fiesta or Punto and see. We can't compare.

Download my road going sets (see sig) and compare again.

I almost posted that for you earlier, Bob

Quote from hugoluis :

I posted only a suggestion from my point of view, that is left of my imagination, and I wanted to know how it would be with hundreds of people in development, but I already was answered by ajp71, I am not angry with the work of them, indeed it is the best simulator in the world! It is the only simulator that I like and play, why would I leave it?

If a moderator lock the topic I am grateful, my question has already been answered.

Thanks

Thanks for understanding, and not being angry... LFS is a unique racing simulator, the only one of its kind... There are a lot of similar sims, but not similar to LFS. And it's unique and fun because of the little dev team. They aren't gods, but thy know what they need, and made this beautiful game to us.

Closing this thread is a good idea, as it got TOO offtopic

Quote from Bob Smith :

Download my road going sets (see sig) and compare again.

Do those setups still work fine for S2X? (I think it says they're updated for U, but I don't remember whether we had any considerable changes since then).

The addition of clutch pack pre-load, which is added automatically for pre-X sets, should make them handle a bit more real, if anything.

Thx.

Quote from Dajmin :

The main reason will be to retain artistic control and design continuity.

Scawen does the programming. That means everything in the sim is the way he wants it in the order he wants it, in the place he wants it, with the notes he wants.

If you add someone else, they'll have their own way of coding, their own style and methods. And then Scawen would be completely reliant on that person to find and change anything that needed altered.

Sorry, but it is wrong. I used to work 6 years in a software development company, and we were like additional arms for the boss.

He was controlling every single line of code and we were not supposed to take any slight decision without asking him, and he was coding himself.
In fact he was a coder with a large project, and wanted to go faster and have consistant progress.

To do that he built a small team, with no hierarchy...just him and few employees. The way it was working allowed him to go 5 times faster, without losing any control, and without any stop if for example he had to stop coding for any reason...
Full control, 5 times faster...from my experience it is still easily possible with up to 8 people.

edit: I resigned from this job...being a stupid arm was killing me

Simply Put:

It'll just end up with a bunch of computer geeks, who haven't even touched a car in real life making the game.

now, we dont want that do we.

Quote from Juls :

Sorry, but it is wrong. I used to work 6 years in a software development company, and we were like additional arms for the boss.

He was controlling every single line of code and we were not supposed to take any slight decision without asking him, and he was coding himself.
In fact he was a coder with a large project, and wanted to go faster and have consistant progress.

To do that he built a small team, with no hierarchy...just him and few employees. The way it was working allowed him to go 5 times faster, without losing any control, and without any stop if for example he had to stop coding for any reason...
Full control, 5 times faster...from my experience it is still easily possible with up to 8 people.

I don't buy it. If he was controlling every single line of code then there is no way that the project was going 5 times faster. What if he didn't like how something was done? The person would have to go back in fix it, spending more time than if he had just done it himself. And there is no way you can tell me that code written by a group of people is cleaner than a good one man job. Scawen knows exactly how every piece of his code works, because he's the one that wrote it. Sure, it takes longer, but the end result is better quality. I can't say that LFS has ever crashed on me.

they've been doing pretty good so far, why change it?

Quote from CTito :

Ok, they don't want or they want to develop following their own ways, but the LFS is still TOO delayed regarding the RACE 07, for example. The LFS only has the NICE³ multiplayer, but look at the physics! It needs to be improved faster. For example, I abandoned LFS and went race on GTR2, it's much more developed (physically) that the LFS. The rain, the time, the temperature... When we'll have it on LFS? On 2009? On 2009 the Simbin will launch GTR3, and the Blimey are launching "Ferrari Project" next year, look at the graphics, the physics, and maybe the better multiplayer (LFS has the B.E.S.T multiplayer I've ever seen BY WHILE).

I agree with the friend above, 5 people will not finish this game and change it, becoming a SIMULATOR, too fast than the other companies.

...

GTR2's auto clutch when off still does its thing.

While I think the current team is doing a bang-up job, I have to agree that certain parts of the sim might be helped by adding a few people. That doesn't necessarily mean someone coding with Scawen, but it does mean people contributing to the overall project.

For instance, there are a lot of talented modelers who play LFS and games like Racer. I think that most of them would kill to get one of their car models into LFS. And, similarly, many of us would kill to have those cars in LFS. For example, what if the guys who did the updated car models for GPL were given the chance to make a 60's F1 car for LFS? Would anyone NOT want to see that in the game? Or how about if a really great LMP car model were available to be put in LFS? Wouldn't we want to see that? Similarly, look at the community projects such as Electrik's textures and Dave's sound packs. These are the kinds of things that the LFS devs should be leveraging. They could easily use the work of these community members and it wouldn't cost them a dime or take much of their time. The game would look better, sound better, and have more variety. The only thing they'd really have to do is add a couple of names to the credits page. The content creators are happy, the users are happy, and the devs have more free time to work on other things. It's a win every way you look at it.

Let Scawen continue his physics work, as it's coming along quite well. Let Eric continue building and refining the tracks. Let Victor continue to maintain and improve the web sites. But take some of the talent that this community has and put it to work! We'll all be thankful in the end.

What if Scawen died while taking that BMW out for a spin in that video? I like the way things are going and LFS is my favorite sim by far but at times I think they could use a little help just for the sake of continuity.

Quote from harjun :

Simply Put:

It'll just end up with a bunch of computer geeks, who haven't even touched a car in real life making the game.

now, we dont want that do we.

exactly, how would you advertise for a position anyways?

programmer needed, must have racing experience

Quote from joeynuggetz :

What if Scawen died while taking that BMW out for a spin in that video? I like the way things are going and LFS is my favorite sim by far but at times I think they could use a little help just for the sake of continuity.

Yeah ok, hire a couple of extra guys just in case Scawen (heaven forbid) dies in a car wreck

Quote from harjun :

It'll just end up with a bunch of computer geeks, who haven't even touched a car in real life making the game.

From reading the forum I get the impression that there any many geeks who also love sim-racing. And IIRC, none of Scavier had had any track-time when they started LFS.

Quote from Juls :

I resigned from this job...being a stupid arm was killing me

I guess Scawen must have felt the same when he resigned from his last job i a games company. Perhaps he has no desire to make someone else as miserable as he felt then.

Quote from UncleBenny :

I don't buy it. If he was controlling every single line of code then there is no way that the project was going 5 times faster. What if he didn't like how something was done? The person would have to go back in fix it, spending more time than if he had just done it himself.

This is surrealistic...am I really supposed to explain that a software engineer project manager is able to make a 6 people team work faster than a 3 people team while keeping control?

Do you really think project management fails when teams get larger than 3?

Quote from UncleBenny :

And there is no way you can tell me that code written by a group of people is cleaner than a good one man job.

Two people working on very close tasks work faster and produce better code than one. This is well known and not only for software engineering.

C'mon all this is obvious!