Quote from Bob Smith :

I just added a locked diff to the mini sim I'm making at work, although I haven't really played with it enough to see how it handles. It's also hard to judge as I don't have any tracks to go around or an LSD to compare it to (yet, locked or open for now). It does mean I can play with tyre physics and see how they affect the diff though. If I come up with anything interesting I'll let you know.

Remember to check on the effects of longitudinal grip and load sensitivity. These seem to be the main suspects to be slightly flawed in LFS' current tyre model.

Someone posted a Blackwood set for the XRT (that I didn't like much). So here's my own crack at one.

Flotch - where's the fun in driving a car? I dunno about you but I quite like it . And IMO exploiting LFS' unfinished physics engine to gain an a unfair advantage is no more fun than driving Need For Speed.

EDIT: See updated XRT setup here.

My XRT version that I do like very much.

It is actually same as it was in X10, but it should work x30 series too.

In essence isn't setup building just about making a setup that is the fastest possible with the added difficulties of tire wear and drivability, etc..? If there are some realistic limits, they should be the limits of LFS and in LFS, not some limits from "real life". And to continue from that LFS should offer similar settings with similar performance, wear factors and environmetal variables as real life to create the optimum environment for realistic setups. Setups are just for going fast, not about doing it right

I mean, there aren't many who can say what is realistic or not setup-wise. When you or I am building a setup I don't really care what is realistic or not as I work within the set limits and try different things. If I'm using locked diff or big camber angles I do not necesarily know that the setup is against mother nature but since it may work it might be the best choise. The only way of getting rid of an exploit is to fix the problem, not to tell people that they are doing it wrong . As LFS progresses the setups will get closer to the real ones. That is really obvious.

Hyper, we are not in S3 yet :shhh:

When we are, I would think that those that are making setups with real world in mind and drive like they would in real world will have an edge over those that have learned to use exploits.

Quote from JTbo :

Hyper, we are not in S3 yet :shhh:

When we are, I would think that those that are making setups with real world in mind and drive like they would in real world will have an edge over those that have learned to use exploits.

But, in essence, the skill of finding an exploit can be the same skill that you use to find that best setup. To find out the stuff that works. New patch, the same skill, the same method still provides the best results. The ability to make a fast set

Quote from Hyperactive :

But, in essence, the skill of finding an exploit can be the same skill that you use to find that best setup. To find out the stuff that works. New patch, the same skill, the same method still provides the best results. The ability to make a fast set

Maybe or then epic failure to find any trick to speed and loosing meaning of life could be one possibility too

Do we soon see round table of setup makers gathering and choosing realistic and fast setups that would be forced to be used on round table approved servers?

Quote from axus :

Someone posted a Blackwood set for the XRT (that I didn't like much). So here's my own crack at one.

Flotch - where's the fun in driving a car? I dunno about you but I quite like it . And IMO exploiting LFS' unfinished physics engine to gain an a unfair advantage is no more fun than driving Need For Speed.

Unfair advantage???
Button clutch is an unfair advantage.
Changing the position of the pilot without having any changes in the view is an unfair advantage.
Using an option of the setup that make the car go slower (because locked differential do not make you faster, like in real life I guess) but more stable is a matter of physics, so blame the guy who is coding! When there was the high nose bug, I did not see why I should have not use it ! If tomorrow we can be "confident" and quick using clutch pack, then we will use clutch pack for every car .
And where do I say I have no fun? The way I love/like to drive is to find how to be as fast as I can. That is fun
I will have a look to your GTT setup, but I do not really like this car
edit : arg that is awful , seriously when I touch the brake I loose 2000rpm in half a tenth , I could use the handbrake that would not be worse :d

Quote from Hallen :

I agree with your thinking on this, although I don't know enough to suggest LSD clutch settings.

However, the reason I end up using a locked diff sometimes is the engine bog down problems. You hit your brakes, the engine bogs down, and you end up with this weird skid problem. It only happens on LSD cars and usually only happens if you are turning just a little bit (ie trail braking or a slight bend in the brake zone). It is not so bad if you are going perfectly straight.

I try to use LSD (the diff that is) whenever I can, but I find in the GTR cars, even with setups I have made from scratch using some of Bob's tools, I still have this strange braking problem. I have tried reducing the amount of brakes to the point where you can't lock up the tires, I have tried moving the brake bias mostly to the front, which helps, but also severely handicaps you in a race. Nothing really works effectively, so I end up using a locked diff.

Yeah, dude, I've had that too! My conclusion: you're not driving right! Neither was I at the time. I can't stand locked differentials and other crazy settings like having the dirt tires on the back of the xfg along with +5 toe out on the rear wheels. That kind of setup works, (along with the locked diff) to get the .33 times on Blackwood, but it is such a crappy driving experience, and the car is so unstable, and... I could go on for hours. The thing is, you canty drive right even if you want to, because then you get left in the dust and get frustarted at yourself, when it's really people "legally cheating" to go faster and not your own fault.

This happens in real racing a well through with some things.

Quote from Glenn67 :

That was a major problem for me with the LSD before patch X30, I used to use high preload to avoid it (i.e. 200 - 400)

With the new engine intertia improvements I have found this problem to be almost non existent now Since X30 I've been setting up the LSD with 20-30 Power Locking, 30-40 coast locking and 20-60 Prload with very good results.

That is the aspect of the new patch that caught most of my attention initially

I personally think we must be pretty close to phasing out the Locked Diff from LFS as the LSD seems pretty good since X30. It was only ever put in there for comparison, it wasn't ever ment to be a viable alternative to the LSD There is simply no need for it anymore. People will not like it though as it will take some time for people to relearn how to setup up a car

So I agree fully with Axus, I suspect he might know that though

Here's the funny thing through, I FULLY support this, because this actually makes sense, but I'm one of "Those people" who still hate the fact that we cant have selectable 45degree lock.

Quote from Flotch :

Unfair advantage???

OK, unnatural advantage: the car shouldn't be that fast with the locked diff. It's exploiting the physics engine. And that just ruins LFS for me. Some want to be the fastest at whatever cost. I'd rather sacrifice half a second (boohoo) and have more fun while driving. Priorities.

Pff I'm better, I sacrifice 1.5 seconds all for realism!

(and I might suck)

I think I could sacrifice 12 seconds.

Gee, shall I get the ruler out?

new suggestion: people using locked diffs get 2 seconds a lap added

I know a few guys that were running suzuki GTI swifts and the first thing they did is weld the diff up,and a alot of guys run locked diffs in the cheaper production car racing we have at club level.

The GTI's guys had to use go-jacks to get the cars back into there pit area but they said it was the norm for there class of racing to weld the diff centers up.

So probably no need to get rid of it yet.

Sometimes I sacrifice speed for realism (most of time actually), and use three pedals, h-shifter, realistic (ish) setups etc. Other times I want a fast paced, speed orientated arrangement, where all the cars are paddle shifted, I left foot brake (no clutch), and use any setup 'exploit' to my advantage.

I am more likely to run the latter in a league or competition.

Quote from richo :

The GTI's guys had to use go-jacks to get the cars back into there pit area but they said it was the norm for there class of racing to weld the diff centers up.

I don't mind the locked diff remaining if it behaves as the way you discribe it. Can't turn the thing in pit lane as it is now it is far too easy to drive with a locked diff.

My father used to race a mini at the speedway back in the '70s, he ran it with welded locked diff, front and rear sway bars, modifed camber and was on slicks, so similar to alot of sets in LFS. He used to win alot of races and had a knack of driving the thing. When he eventually retired from racing the car he sold it onto another fellow competitor who was used to RWD cars he most likely ran with welded diffs as well so wasn't unfamilar with them.

The new owner accused my old man of sabortaging the winning mini as he couldn't drive it no matter how much he tried He would just come flying up to the first corner and carry straight on ahead up the embankment as he couldn't get the thing to turn.

Locked diffs should not be easy to drive imo. My old man had a particular technique for setting up the car (I suspect it had something to do with wieght shift to lift the front inside wheel) to have the right attitude in the bends which enabled him to have maximum power down for most of the lap, where competitiors in much more powerful RWD cars couldn't get down all there power.

Quote from axus :

OK, unnatural advantage: the car shouldn't be that fast with the locked diff. It's exploiting the physics engine. And that just ruins LFS for me. Some want to be the fastest at whatever cost. I'd rather sacrifice half a second (boohoo) and have more fun while driving. Priorities.

who has said you are slower with clutch pack?
Actually, imo you are quicker with clutch pack, but you have to manage with the engine going crazy sometimes when braking. As I brake with the right foot, I cannot do lfb to keep the car on the road , so I am forced to find something that is closer to the handling IRL. So if I can 'master' a car with clutch pack, fine, if not, should I stop driving this car? No way! Even if locked diff. is crap, if I have to use it, I will!

Quote from Glenn67 :

My father used to race a mini at the speedway back in the '70s, he ran it with welded locked diff, front and rear sway bars, modifed camber and was on slicks, so similar to alot of sets in LFS.

A mini? So that was fwd? Or was it converted to rwd? Just asking since I'm still interested to know about fwd and locked diffs (in the real world... )

It sounds from Glenn's descreption as an FWD
I agree that locked diffs should not be so easy to drive... but that has completely to do with LFS's current tire physics.
Anyway principles of making a locked diff setup are the same in LFS as IRL. but i always avoid them

Quote from axus :

So to recap: we've established that a stiffer differential results in more longitudinal force on the outside wheel and less on the inside.

Are you sure about that? Which wheel has more longitudinal force on it really depends on the speeds of the wheels compared to each other. It can go both ways. Usually I'd say a stiffer diff will cause more understeer both on power and coast.

But I agree that locked diffs need to be banished back to hell, together with understeer inducing brake balance.

Quote from nihil :

A mini? So that was fwd? Or was it converted to rwd? Just asking since I'm still interested to know about fwd and locked diffs (in the real world... )

It was still a FWD and motor package as original but the motor had been tunned alot

Quote from J.B. :

Are you sure about that? Which wheel has more longitudinal force on it really depends on the speeds of the wheels compared to each other. It can go both ways. Usually I'd say a stiffer diff will cause more understeer both on power and coast.

But I agree that locked diffs need to be banished back to hell, together with understeer inducing brake balance.

I think cars with low power locking factors are likely to resist returning from a slide more than those with high locking factors but under normal driving conditions you'd get more oversteer just over the limit with a high power locking factor. My experience in LFS confirms this.

I'll speak to Todd about the actual physics behind it. I know that the higher the locking factor the higher the torque bias ratio though - and that's the limiting factor, the ratio of
Torque on the outside wheel : Torque on the inside wheel
can't exceed the TBR. I have no idea how the maths behind diffs works up to this point though.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Sometimes I sacrifice speed for realism (most of time actually), and use three pedals, h-shifter, realistic (ish) setups etc. Other times I want a fast paced, speed orientated arrangement, where all the cars are paddle shifted, I left foot brake (no clutch), and use any setup 'exploit' to my advantage.

I am more likely to run the latter in a league or competition.

I figure I'm in competition every time I log onto a server, so I use whatever is fastest, whether it's (pre-x30) flatshifting, locked diffs, etc.

The CTRA system doesn't award points for "the most realistic driver". I'm hoping patch Y will punish infidels (like me!) who have been flatshifting, but as long as it makes me faster and I can finish races, I'll do it.

Ok, one exception, I won't switch my driver to the other side of the car depending on the "handed-ness" of the course. I guess that makes me something of a hypocrite.