I've looked into this BL2 clutch issue but can't find an easy solution to it. I tried increasing the clutch grip but it didn't help much, I'd have to increase it so much the whole clutch thing wouldn't work properly any more.

We are too close to release to do anything about that I think. It's not your fault, you can blame me for running out of time, but I'm just warning that no matter how much it is discussed, I think that will just have to be a known issue. Also it needs research, I'm not sure what a real XF GTI road car would do if subjected to that kind of abuse. Healthy clutch slipping is possible, my bike can even do it if the wheel takes off and lands again at full power in third gear, the clutch can slip a surprising amount, and this happened when the bike was near new, now 10 years later the clutch is still perfectly healthy. I don't know what would happen to a real road car at full torque jumping up and down like that.

But then for now I can't get into a discussion about that, I'm just trying to fix actual prioritised bugs that can be done quickly.

If we're stuck with the slipping for the time being, perhaps you could at least turn down the amount of heat that it generates (or turn off the heat completely)? It's not a fix, but it would be a workaround that should allow people to finish a race without burning up the clutch.

Everyone is happy that the cars can now stall, but the problems that the clutch heat is causing outweigh the benefits, IMO.

I'm curious what everyone else thinks of this. I've been begging for stalling and clutch modeling since I first started playing LFS, but the heat issue really is causing a lot of headaches.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

...

You're a braver man than I.

I agree that the XFG clutch is very weak, but I'm willing to accept that as a limitation of the car (it's not my favorite car). Maybe the XFG factory was skimping on parts that year?

Quote from Scawen :

I've looked into this BL2 clutch issue but can't find an easy solution to it. I tried increasing the clutch grip but it didn't help much, I'd have to increase it so much the whole clutch thing wouldn't work properly any more.

We are too close to release to do anything about that I think. It's not your fault, you can blame me for running out of time, but I'm just warning that no matter how much it is discussed, I think that will just have to be a known issue. Also it needs research, I'm not sure what a real XF GTI road car would do if subjected to that kind of abuse. Healthy clutch slipping is possible, my bike can even do it if the wheel takes off and lands again at full power in third gear, the clutch can slip a surprising amount, and this happened when the bike was near new, now 10 years later the clutch is still perfectly healthy. I don't know what would happen to a real road car at full torque jumping up and down like that.

But then for now I can't get into a discussion about that, I'm just trying to fix actual prioritised bugs that can be done quickly.

Well, as you now know situation and are looking some solution in future, I'm sure we can wait and tell others that ask about that this clarification to situation so there is less buzz around it, maybe, we will see in future of course

Quote from Scawen :

I've looked into this BL2 clutch issue but can't find an easy solution to it. I tried increasing the clutch grip but it didn't help much, I'd have to increase it so much the whole clutch thing wouldn't work properly any more.

We are too close to release to do anything about that I think. It's not your fault, you can blame me for running out of time, but I'm just warning that no matter how much it is discussed, I think that will just have to be a known issue. Also it needs research, I'm not sure what a real XF GTI road car would do if subjected to that kind of abuse. Healthy clutch slipping is possible, my bike can even do it if the wheel takes off and lands again at full power in third gear, the clutch can slip a surprising amount, and this happened when the bike was near new, now 10 years later the clutch is still perfectly healthy. I don't know what would happen to a real road car at full torque jumping up and down like that.

But then for now I can't get into a discussion about that, I'm just trying to fix actual prioritised bugs that can be done quickly.

I can live with that.

I think the most important thing we can do to avoid clutch over heating is to make sure our gear ratios are set pretty closely. It takes a lot more work to fry the clutch if your gear ratios are setup correctly.

Just another data point for future consideration.

I setup an XRG with power, weight, suspension and gearing like my real life BMW E46 3 Series.

In less than 5 laps, the clutch was over heating. I used the exact gear ratios and diff ratio from the real car. The clutch does slip a lot between shifts. This can be minimized by very carefully insuring that the clutch is all the way out before touching the gas. This is not realistic because I can shift much more aggressively in the real car with no problems. The gear ratios ove a street car are very wide and this causes the RPM's to drop a lot and this seems to lead to more slilpping in the clutch on gear changes.

I do track my real car. I do 20 minute sessions around a 2 mile, 12 turn track. I do not heel/toe because of problems with my brake pedal travel so you would expect that this would add more heat to the clutch. I do heel/toe with LFS.

I think the clutch travel in LFS does contribute some to the over heating because the initial engagement to fully engaged range seems too long.

Thanks for listening Scawen, and a big thumbs up on this latest release.

Quote from Scawen :

I've looked into this BL2 clutch issue but can't find an easy solution to it. I tried increasing the clutch grip but it didn't help much, I'd have to increase it so much the whole clutch thing wouldn't work properly any more.

We are too close to release to do anything about that I think. It's not your fault, you can blame me for running out of time, but I'm just warning that no matter how much it is discussed, I think that will just have to be a known issue. Also it needs research, I'm not sure what a real XF GTI road car would do if subjected to that kind of abuse. Healthy clutch slipping is possible, my bike can even do it if the wheel takes off and lands again at full power in third gear, the clutch can slip a surprising amount, and this happened when the bike was near new, now 10 years later the clutch is still perfectly healthy. I don't know what would happen to a real road car at full torque jumping up and down like that.

But then for now I can't get into a discussion about that, I'm just trying to fix actual prioritised bugs that can be done quickly.

Are you able/willing to expand on that? You say the clutch still slips even with a higher 'clamping force'. Where does the additional torque to break the grip come from? Is it because LFS is a rigid body simulation with a physics engine that can, in some cases, give large values even if the same system in real life (and continuous process rather than finite steps) wouldn't?

So if the clamping force is sensible (and I think many clutch manufacturers would be happy to divulge their values), it slips too much, and generates too much heat. Along the lines of what Cue-Ball said, is the clutch heat simulated using real-world values (heat capacities, rate of heat production with slip etc), or is it simply a 'value' that seems about right? To offset the clutch heat ruining (potentially) RallyX races then it would strike me that reducing the heat generated significantly would be ideal - people would still be able to melt their clutch in extreme cases, but in normal cases (even when 'bugs' cause too much slip) it wouldn't be a problem.

I don't think it's the clutch slipping that is the real problem, but the heat in this case. If there was no clutch temperature modelling then I bet very few people would mind the slipping on BL2.

I hope that makes sense. You know I'm no coder, and I don't know the inner workings of LFS or your intentions. But reducing the heat build up (say 50%, or even just 30%) then the problem goes away until you have time to looking at it next year.

Auto-updated to X34 one minute ago.

Where´s the changelog..?

EDIT: solved

Woot X34.. But where is the change's list?

its on there now void and takumi check the 1st post

Quote from robt :

its on there now void and takumi check the 1st post

It wasent there a sec ago?

Maybe Scawen just updated the List

I'm having some weird bug in X34. Watching some cars on the redline racing server, their tyres are smoking all the time as if they'd have a leaking engine.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Everyone is happy that the cars can now stall, but the problems that the clutch heat is causing outweigh the benefits, IMO.

I'm curious what everyone else thinks of this.

I don't have a clutch and shifter setup but I've done some rather lengthy offline practice sessions so far with the XRG, the XRR and the FBM (using manual clutch for the last two since it can work off a button easily with the sequentials) and I can't say that clutch heat causes me any problem unless I really screw up my throttle control if I spin out.

Quote from Scawen :

I tried increasing the clutch grip but it didn't help much, I'd have to increase it so much the whole clutch thing wouldn't work properly any more.

Hm, that's interesting. I always love to read things that provide some insight as to how LFS approaches things. I for one really appreciate you sharing that sort of thing!

Quote :

Also it needs research, I'm not sure what a real XF GTI road car would do if subjected to that kind of abuse.

Well, that's the thing. Only based on anecdotal things, it would SEEM that the cars have different strenghts of clutches - the RB4 does fine, and XRG has less issues on BL2. Perhaps the clutch strength is based on the engine output - so the piddly torque on XFG means a weaker clutch, and so landing - combined with the increased engine inertia in the patch, means clutch slipping. So then, perhaps this is a function of engine modelling - and the fact that the engines have high "simple" inertias for now? Just thinking out loud.

Quote :

Healthy clutch slipping is possible, my bike can even do it if the wheel takes off and lands again at full power in third gear, the clutch can slip a surprising amount, and this happened when the bike was near new, now 10 years later the clutch is still perfectly healthy.

Hehe, flying Scawen.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Everyone is happy that the cars can now stall, but the problems that the clutch heat is causing outweigh the benefits, IMO.

Well, the only REAL problem is on BL2, and that'll have to wait. It's perfectly fine in all other situations, unless you plan on doing a lot of starts with a tall 1st gear - which shouldn't really happen.

No, it's not "done" for now, but then neither is damage and we're living with that for now.

I do hope that with the patch release, Scawen releases another "word about our plans" statement. We know cockpits will be "as soon as possible", which is fine, but does that mean another imcomp patch? Personally I don't care about the HL charts much, but many do. And surely he will be looking into the whole clutch issue as well next year.

I'm just glad we have these new things to play with, I hope Scawen that you have a great Christmas. Get Y wrapped up for now and we'll see you next year

ye. smoke everywhere. whn someone spinns or lockes up

X34 is gone mad!

Smokey everywhere!

Quote from GP4Flo :

I'm having some weird bug in X34. Watching some cars on the redline racing server, their tyres are smoking all the time as if they'd have a leaking engine.

Confirmed!

Saw this on ligainternationalracing (XFR/UFR on KY GP rev). Tyres and clutches looked normal...

Looked fine when I just joined Redline with X34. Only on for a few seconds, and the race was over, though people were still driving).

Scawen i dl'd the patch just now and im on x32 server with my mates who run currently x33 patches... to me it appear that theyr tires are red / to them they are fine / and when some one slides a bit the smoke comes in and dont stop... cars in smoke on the straight... is this a bug or x33/2 not compatible with x34 xD

edit: i just did some pics of this if u want i could upload some of them...

x35 out in just 2 min... 10x for fast answer

Quote from ZanZi :

is this a bug or x33 not compatible with x34 xD

Nah, it`s Scawen`s xmas present for all the drifters.

We already had two mass disconnects on redline racing. LFS shows a "name: OOS - PLY" for every player including yourself.

Scawen! take a break! X35??

X35 out xD

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I do hope that with the patch release, Scawen releases another "word about our plans" statement. We know cockpits will be "as soon as possible", which is fine, but does that mean another imcomp patch? Personally I don't care about the HL charts much, but many do. And surely he will be looking into the whole clutch issue as well next year.

Scawen has said before that any changes to the car models requires an incompatible patch. So, yes, whenever the new car interiors come along the charts will have to be reset again. Knowing that the game is still Alpha, people shouldn't have a problem with the charts resetting. Every time they reset it means that we're making progress.

OMG Scawen... You guys are awesome!

I've fixed that tyre smoke bug.

I've also reduced clutch heating by 25%. Let me know if that helps things. It's important that people are prevented from constant flat shifting and I fear that this reduction although it may help the XF GTI at Blackwood Rallycross, may also allow too much flat shifting.