As far as I'm aware there have been no InSim changes since X10. I've not noticed anything missing...
As far as I'm aware there have been no InSim changes since X10. I've not noticed anything missing...
It is for sure better. (The way clutch cools down helps a lot) Please keep it in that way if we are going to stay for long time with the current model
Please try to answer the question I've asked. Because as it stands, I'll probably set it back to X33 level. I need to know which cars (if any) suffer more clutch overheating than others, on road or rallycross tracks, so I can hopefully start to see a pattern.
From my testing, it clearly looks like to be the case that XFG could use bit stronger clutch as comparing to XRG which is run in same class there is bit of difference that seem to multiply in BL2.
Maybe 15% maybe even less, I don't think it is not big difference that is needed.
Sadly I can´t remember who it was (I guess Hyper), but in some other patch thread someone mentioned the "hysteresis" of a clutch caused by the difference in the dynamic and static coefficient of friction.
Probably not something that you will be able to try for Y but you should keep it in mind as a possible permanent fix for this problem.
When driven correctly, I haven't had any cars overheat the clutch on tarmac tracks. The clutches still slip like crazy, but as long as you lift and blip, they don't seem to overheat.
As for the rallycross races, they seem to be pretty much ruined by the clutch overheating using the X33 system, as many people here will attest. Not even the AI and their perfect shifting technique can go more than a few laps on any of the rallycross tracks. I personally haven't tried rallycross in X35.
Rather than looking for a pattern of which cars overheat and which ones don't, is there any way we can help narrow down why the clutches are slipping when they should not be? It doesn't make any sense that in low traction conditions like dirt, that the tires are overpowering the clutch. There must be something, somewhere that we're overlooking.
Edit: Is there any way that we can output clutch slippage and/or stress/torque from a replay and graph it? Something similar to the replay analyzers?
As for the rallycross races, they seem to be pretty much ruined by the clutch overheating using the X33 system, as many people here will attest. Not even the AI and their perfect shifting technique can go more than a few laps on any of the rallycross tracks. I personally haven't tried rallycross in X35.
Rather than looking for a pattern of which cars overheat and which ones don't, is there any way we can help narrow down why the clutches are slipping when they should not be? It doesn't make any sense that in low traction conditions like dirt, that the tires are overpowering the clutch. There must be something, somewhere that we're overlooking.
Edit: Is there any way that we can output clutch slippage and/or stress/torque from a replay and graph it? Something similar to the replay analyzers?
I have not noticed a problem with any clutch besides the XFG. Even nursing it seems to hurt the poor thing.
Edit: What Cue-Ball said!
Edit: What Cue-Ball said!
It is a bit hard to tell without extensive testing, but of the three cars (XFG, XRT, XFR) I tested in the last hour, the XFG seems to be most prone to overheating by a large margin. (There aren't any problems with it when not abused, though.)
When flatshifting with it, you also immediately notice how long it takes compared to the other cars for the clutch to bring down the revs. Maybe the XFG has an especially heavy flywheel (or engine inertia?) that combined with the relatively high revs fights very strongly against being slowed down, thus slipping the clutch much more?
We should hear more opinions about this before taking action, though.
When flatshifting with it, you also immediately notice how long it takes compared to the other cars for the clutch to bring down the revs. Maybe the XFG has an especially heavy flywheel (or engine inertia?) that combined with the relatively high revs fights very strongly against being slowed down, thus slipping the clutch much more?
We should hear more opinions about this before taking action, though.
Cue-Ball, I think you are going to deep into problem as current intention is not to find cure, but make patient feel bit better as making cure will take bit more time than now there is.
Yes, you are probably right. However, I'm still open to contributing as much as I can to getting the problem fixed. Who knows, perhaps with just a little investigation Scawen will happen upon a silver bullet for the problem. If I can help find that silver bullet, I'm willing to try.
Perhaps it would be possible to simulate a "virtual spring" in the clutch, just like real road car clutches use. That could possibly soak up some of the jarring on/off throttle transitions and prevent some slippage that shouldn't occur. Or maybe there is some way to make the clutch friction non-linear, so that once it grabs it's less likely to slip, but that it can still slip taking off from a start.
I'm just thinking out loud here...
Scawen the clutch model actually produced too little heat before. You could make only bad shifts and the heat wouldn't increase more than 1-2 levels on the indicator.
In real life 3 partially bad shifts, like feeding a LITTLE throttle slightly before complete release of the clutch can already give a smell in some cars.
Now in LFS it's totally unrealistic, I can do shifts I wouldn't think of in real life and the clutch temperature stays pretty much at the lowest level all the time. (pre x35)
In real life 3 partially bad shifts, like feeding a LITTLE throttle slightly before complete release of the clutch can already give a smell in some cars.
Now in LFS it's totally unrealistic, I can do shifts I wouldn't think of in real life and the clutch temperature stays pretty much at the lowest level all the time. (pre x35)
Why clutch heats so much when you have gear in roll along 80kph and release clutch so that engine takes up rpm, tested this with XRG and XFG, 3rd gear, both seem to do this, but I would guess it happens more often with XFG. This might also have something to do with issue.
To original question, XRG seem to slip clutch on rally cross only on big jumps and there quite bit less than XFG, if we look RB4 then, I don't need to baby clutch at all on jumps, only at shifting.
I have done all testing in x30 as haven't upgraded yet and maybe useful also to test there as it is original situation which we are looking solution to.
edit:
-sorry from kind of OT, ignore this
Thinking aloud got me also thinking aloud here, on ice racing they use spike tires that has more grip than normal street tires on tarmac, those put lot more stress to drivetrain, bit like slicks do, so you are more prone to destroy driveshafts etc. But in those situations I have hardly ever heard from clutch being too weak, but with bad clutch there is slippage. I would think it is situation similar to lfs rally cross tyres, grip is so much higher and that makes clutch slip when car comes down from bump, maybe does not happen with street tires at all.
-sorry from kind of OT, ignore this
To original question, XRG seem to slip clutch on rally cross only on big jumps and there quite bit less than XFG, if we look RB4 then, I don't need to baby clutch at all on jumps, only at shifting.
I have done all testing in x30 as haven't upgraded yet and maybe useful also to test there as it is original situation which we are looking solution to.
edit:
-sorry from kind of OT, ignore this
Thinking aloud got me also thinking aloud here, on ice racing they use spike tires that has more grip than normal street tires on tarmac, those put lot more stress to drivetrain, bit like slicks do, so you are more prone to destroy driveshafts etc. But in those situations I have hardly ever heard from clutch being too weak, but with bad clutch there is slippage. I would think it is situation similar to lfs rally cross tyres, grip is so much higher and that makes clutch slip when car comes down from bump, maybe does not happen with street tires at all.
-sorry from kind of OT, ignore this
I think the rallycross problem is almost exclusive to the XFG. I got 5 XRG AIs to finish a 15 lap race on the same lap as me in X33.
regarding the clutch slipping when the tires suddenly find grip, i wonder if simulating a guibo would help? (the flexible rubber mount between the transmission and drive shaft) this would allow some drivetrain lash and absorb some of the forces before they reach the clutch.
I've been getting a weird texture glitch once and awhile from the X30 patch. See the attached
It could be because of the ATI, or driver conflicting who knows.. Just thought I would report it.
It could be because of the ATI, or driver conflicting who knows.. Just thought I would report it.
I agree, there is no real problem with XRG and no with RB4 either.
"Tyres / clutch cool down even if the car is out of physics"
You mean you can run out? :P
You mean you can run out? :P
I also had the same mass disconnect bug, im still running x30 server
No, car is excluded from physics calculation when engine is turned off and there was bug that caused tires to remain same temp even car is 1 hour turned off, so that means just that tires cool now even engine is off really
Tested all road cars in rally X and I agree that only the XFG is problematic with it's clutch temperature.
Thanks for the testing, everyone. I have had one idea, the clutch strength (combination of springs and friction material type / size) should not only be based on the engine's maximum torque, but also the rotational inertia of the engine. To say it another way, an engine with a bigger flywheel needs a bigger clutch.
So by using this method I could give the XF GTI a stronger clutch without affecting the racing cars (which although they have a lightened engine, already have a strong clutch to deal with their high output torque). And hopefully if the XF clutch is made strong enough by this method, I can return heating to X33 levels.
That's interesting. Do you know how resistant to rotation they are? E.g. how many degrees they can "give" when transmitting the engine's maximum torque. LFS does have something like this but if I had some real life figures I could compare them with the LFS version of it.
So by using this method I could give the XF GTI a stronger clutch without affecting the racing cars (which although they have a lightened engine, already have a strong clutch to deal with their high output torque). And hopefully if the XF clutch is made strong enough by this method, I can return heating to X33 levels.
That's interesting. Do you know how resistant to rotation they are? E.g. how many degrees they can "give" when transmitting the engine's maximum torque. LFS does have something like this but if I had some real life figures I could compare them with the LFS version of it.
Help please
I just did few laps in the latest (X35 I presume) and it was really hard to burn the clutch without really trying. With XFG I was going pretty much ad infinitum with all intentions to burn the clutch. I tried several cars with both long and short gear ratios and the only car was the XRG where I was able to burn the clutch eventually. But I didn't test pre-X35 on rallycross...
Here's the link for the clutch post I made: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=630185#post630185
The clutch heat modelling (heat vs. slip essentially) is a tough one, graphs can be hard to find but the clutch friction, or "torque capacity" is an easy one. There are lots of basic engineering books to be found in libraries about it so it is easy to check. Especially if a rough estimation is enough.
That being said, how do you guys drive rallycross? You know that if you land the car (after a jump) at full throttle the clutch has to absorb all the torque the tires and engine braking cause? You know that rallydrivers, even in wrc, lift as they land after a jump? Even RC car drivers lift as they jump because the cars can't take it. Just to be sure. But as I said, I didn't test pre-X35 versions on rallycross so I have no idea.
Here's the link for the clutch post I made: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=630185#post630185
The clutch heat modelling (heat vs. slip essentially) is a tough one, graphs can be hard to find but the clutch friction, or "torque capacity" is an easy one. There are lots of basic engineering books to be found in libraries about it so it is easy to check. Especially if a rough estimation is enough.
That being said, how do you guys drive rallycross? You know that if you land the car (after a jump) at full throttle the clutch has to absorb all the torque the tires and engine braking cause? You know that rallydrivers, even in wrc, lift as they land after a jump? Even RC car drivers lift as they jump because the cars can't take it. Just to be sure
. But as I said, I didn't test pre-X35 versions on rallycross so I have no idea.Just to note that not all cars have guibo.
Don't know if these help, but here is pic and it came from this page
Material is bit similar to some engine mounts, it can flex, but it is used mainly to remove small vibrations, it is not flexing anything significant amount as you can see by looking photo.
Don't know if these help, but here is pic and it came from this page
Material is bit similar to some engine mounts, it can flex, but it is used mainly to remove small vibrations, it is not flexing anything significant amount as you can see by looking photo.
How much torque can tires and engine braking possibly cause when driving on dirt and gravel? Letting off the gas while driving over bumpy pavement, or being on the gas after going over a speedbump a bit too fast would be more likely to generate a lot of stress on the drivetrain, and I've never had a clutch slip as a result of those types of actions. Not even in 15 year old beaters.
This thread is closed
TEST Patch X30 (to X38)
(1444 posts, closed, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG