I can't check the patch forum since it appears to be gone but scawen stated that we was going to work on the AI ramming shortly after he released the first X patches leading up to Y. Was this addressed? He stated this in the patch forum in the AI thread.
So, did any AI awareness improvements make into Y?
#2
- h3adbang3r
Yes, but I have noticed that if there is a car standing on the track, the AI will get ~10 feet away from the car before it does anything to try to avoid, which means, the AI will jerk the steering wheel and almost lose control.
No, they are faster, but they still have little to no situational awareness
You can still view the patch forum, altough it's in "read only" mode: http://www.lfsforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=66
No, there were a lot of actual bugs to fix, it kept me going, very busy right up until the deadline. I didn't get the few days of peace I'd need to code up their awareness and overtaking abilities.
Of course I am interested in getting in right, I don't want to see a BF1 stuck behind a UF1 continually pressing and releasing its throttle pedal because it doesn't know how to pass, and I don't want an AI ramming me off the track when I am trying to take a corner, or ramming me during a pit stop because it decided to use the box I am sitting in.
Have had some great races with the faster A.I 
, they do still collide/ram me etc, however the effects of collisions (in general) don't seem as severe.
Is this something that has been changed?
, they do still collide/ram me etc, however the effects of collisions (in general) don't seem as severe.Is this something that has been changed?
Keep in mind though Scawen, you do have the Auto-update thing fixed, so if people want to play online .. they're forced to update, so really you don't have to worry about updating everyone without making a huge public deal about it, just throw some test patches at us, and then fun the autoupdate patcher for everyone.
Just something to keep in mind.
Just something to keep in mind.
But when that is said, Scawen take the christmas off.
I suggest you take a step back and enjoy this happy time of year with your familiy.
Come back in 2008 and start working again tho, and what ^ said, small updates doesn`t need to be made posts about on the forum. If it`s an AI upgrade it`s included in the filename on the autodownloader, and everyone will understand what it does.
A _serious_ let down. The only thing I was hoping for in the patch (and the reason I haven't bothered installing any of the X3x tests).
A real shame that after more than 2 years, the AI still sound about as bright as your average retard. Being able to pit, qualify etc means nothing if they have no idea how to avoid others on the track. Isn't that like going for your driving test, knowing exactly how to put in a new set of rings, but never having had an actual driving lesson?
Arse-about-face is the immediate phrase that springs to mind.
Regards,
Ian
trust me the ai drive a lot better than some online drivers and when we introduced some on an early test patch server, they were finishing in the first 3 so they will give you a decent challenge to catch and past eg using the default set, my ai1 was laping in the low 1.08 s in his / her / its first race in the FBM
Merry Christmas Scawen
resent: That sounds positive, but the lack of awareness is what really worries me. My littlen really likes LFS.. he spends hours playing it while he's here, but they AI are just so stupid, it becomes frustrating when you're taken out just because you're sitting on the defined racing line and the AI want to be there, whether you're there or not.
I know Scawen has the knowledge and ability to code great AI, the AI back in S1 days were pretty sweet! Just a disappointment that the awareness hasn't been worked on seriously yet as I thought that most of the AI stuff was planned to be resolved in this patch, and the other improvements really make little difference if they can't actually race properly. I know and understand bugs crop up and need addressing.. but it seems the AI really weren't that high up on the agenda for patch Y after all. I also know that the majority play online, but to ignore the AI for 2 years and still have poor situational awareness isn't very good, IMO as LFS does have an offline mode built-in, and some people much prefer it.
Regards,
Ian
I'm happy with the AI progress, but like Ian I believe that situational awareness is the highest priority. I hope it is now high on the agenda of things to be improved.
Ian there's one thing you have totally overlooked - TIME!
You are right, AI's lack of awareness is a serous lacking. And if I had been sitting around, gazing at stars, playing pool in ther pub, these last couple of weeks, you'd be right that I had wrongly neglected them!
But I've recently been working 15 hour days to clear out all the bugs, don't know if you've been following the test patches but there were thousands of posts in that short time. I fixed hundreds of issues that were even more important than the AI awareness. That kind of AI programming takes some serious concentration.
There's no more I can do to explain it, oither than direct you to the test patch forum where you can read about all the bug reports, many of which were very serious. http://www.lfsforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=66
Then, having read the entire test patch forum, you will be armed with the facts with which to judge me.
You are right, AI's lack of awareness is a serous lacking. And if I had been sitting around, gazing at stars, playing pool in ther pub, these last couple of weeks, you'd be right that I had wrongly neglected them!
But I've recently been working 15 hour days to clear out all the bugs, don't know if you've been following the test patches but there were thousands of posts in that short time. I fixed hundreds of issues that were even more important than the AI awareness. That kind of AI programming takes some serious concentration.
There's no more I can do to explain it, oither than direct you to the test patch forum where you can read about all the bug reports, many of which were very serious. http://www.lfsforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=66
Then, having read the entire test patch forum, you will be armed with the facts with which to judge me.
Hi Scawen..
I haven't overlooked time, I actually mentioned it in both of my posts here. "2 or more years" I think was the reference I made.
No point beating around the bush, I'll be blunt; why has it taken 2 years for the AI to even be considered being addressed?
I'm not trying to imply you were, and you know it.
I have followed some, the sheer number was also a reason for me not trying this series of patches (I normally install them) simply as time for me is limited right now and I wanted what I had to remain working until they'd been ironed out, so I do understand you had a lot of work to do in a short period of time... but I'm still wondering why it's taken so long to even get to them? I mean, surely.. the fact the AI, being a apart of the core game having absolutely zero awareness of anything for 2 years, is a serious "bug" too?
I've looked at AI coding and it made my head spin (primarily as I never thought I'd need to know that side of maths back at school and chose to forget a lot, regrettably) so I understand that coding such AI isn't a 5 min task (I couldn't achieve it, period) and I do know you're capable.. I just can't understand why it's taken so long to look at this area of the game. Why did the clutches etc get priority over the AI for this patch? Again, I'm all for increased realism and it's something that will be a cool addition to LFS, but it seems you're adding more and more (that's then causing subsequent further bugs that need fixing, like you have done for patch Y) rather than fixing already long standing existing issues.
Time was tight for you between patch X30 and patch Y, granted... what was the problem between patch P(?) and Y?
Regards,
Ian
I haven't overlooked time, I actually mentioned it in both of my posts here. "2 or more years" I think was the reference I made.
No point beating around the bush, I'll be blunt; why has it taken 2 years for the AI to even be considered being addressed?
I'm not trying to imply you were, and you know it.
I have followed some, the sheer number was also a reason for me not trying this series of patches (I normally install them) simply as time for me is limited right now and I wanted what I had to remain working until they'd been ironed out, so I do understand you had a lot of work to do in a short period of time... but I'm still wondering why it's taken so long to even get to them? I mean, surely.. the fact the AI, being a apart of the core game having absolutely zero awareness of anything for 2 years, is a serious "bug" too?
I've looked at AI coding and it made my head spin (primarily as I never thought I'd need to know that side of maths back at school and chose to forget a lot, regrettably) so I understand that coding such AI isn't a 5 min task (I couldn't achieve it, period) and I do know you're capable.. I just can't understand why it's taken so long to look at this area of the game. Why did the clutches etc get priority over the AI for this patch? Again, I'm all for increased realism and it's something that will be a cool addition to LFS, but it seems you're adding more and more (that's then causing subsequent further bugs that need fixing, like you have done for patch Y) rather than fixing already long standing existing issues.
Time was tight for you between patch X30 and patch Y, granted... what was the problem between patch P(?) and Y?
Regards,
Ian
Well... time!
And as I've said before, it's based on inspiration, I don't calculate all priorities of all known tasks and work on the most important as dictated by some arbitrary importance calculation. I work in a more "human" way, prioritising of course, also concentrating on areas of code, also doing the small things that help along the way. AI didn't get any attention until recently, due to many other things that were done over the last few years. OF COURSE AI awareness was top of the list (I mean the paper list sitting here in front of me) for these last two weeks but as already explained, that could not happen (really, you must read the entire test patch forum).
The only way to solve this would be to hire a team of very good programmers, and make them sign they'd never leave LFS of course, assign them different tasks and get more things done quicker. But... I doubt they'd sign never to leave, and also, that's not how we want to work. You are in a major rush, I'm not, I'm enjoying the journey!
And as I've said before, it's based on inspiration, I don't calculate all priorities of all known tasks and work on the most important as dictated by some arbitrary importance calculation. I work in a more "human" way, prioritising of course, also concentrating on areas of code, also doing the small things that help along the way. AI didn't get any attention until recently, due to many other things that were done over the last few years. OF COURSE AI awareness was top of the list (I mean the paper list sitting here in front of me) for these last two weeks but as already explained, that could not happen (really, you must read the entire test patch forum).
The only way to solve this would be to hire a team of very good programmers, and make them sign they'd never leave LFS of course, assign them different tasks and get more things done quicker. But... I doubt they'd sign never to leave, and also, that's not how we want to work. You are in a major rush, I'm not, I'm enjoying the journey!
@Scawen: Just invade Switzerland :P The AI are a LOT better than they were (Or I'm just slow). I don't personally care about situational awareness. They are a lot better than some online drivers...now if only they'd chat to you
DK
DK
As long as you keep enjoying it I feel that we'll end up with the best sim ever. I'm too old to be a fanboy as such but the way LFS is going is fine by me. (barring digital speedos in minis
) Go drive a few more race cars, enjoy the ride and have a good Christmas I'll read through the test patch forum as things like that interest me generally and I do understand the approach (I also realise that when coding, some things are a lot harder to find motivation for than other areas), I just personally would have thought the AI would have generally been a highish priority in wanting it to function at least semi-well (knowing LFS is a WIP, I don't expect "perfection" in the first patch etc) earlier on than now. Maybe this is just a difference of opinion on what should be prioritised (in a human way).
Although that sounds a bit tongue-in-cheek, I'm no more in favour of hiring a large team than you are. From personal experience, I much prefer working solo or with a small team rather for various reasons.
While I'd like to see some things happen a bit quicker, I wouldn't call waiting 2 years for this particular area to be looked at, "in a major rush".
Although it may sound it, I'm not trying to bitch about the points I've mentioned, just a little disappointed about this part, that's all
That said, it's now xmas afterall.. so I wish you a good xmas for you and your family
Regards,
Ian
I think that currently the AI is decent enough for random practice session traffic. Atleast that's what I use them as so the track don't feel devoid of any other "life" or activity.
Have you tried patch Y? In my experience, the awareness is already better than before. When I go side-by-side with an AI into a corner, the AI often brakes and lets me pass. In patch X, they would invariably push me off the track.
You know, my only real gripe with the AI is the fact that now they all drive the same car exactly the same way, they all use exactly the same setup and in a race they really look like a conga-line and there is practically zero overtaking unless there's a T1 shunt.
The only way to spice it up a bit, which takes some "work", is to manually set them up with different setups. It's also a pity we can't assign the difficulty level on a per individual AI driver basis - that would mix it up a bit and add some diversity to the field.
The only way to spice it up a bit, which takes some "work", is to manually set them up with different setups. It's also a pity we can't assign the difficulty level on a per individual AI driver basis - that would mix it up a bit and add some diversity to the field.
I disagree. If I race online and the light turns green and my accelerator is stuck, the guy behind me doesn't ram right into me. He'll at least attempt to go around me.
Scawen, we certainly appreciate all the hard work you've put into addressing the patches that came out of the test patch testing process. I know its Christmas as all and I'm sure you're going to take some time off, but when do you usually pick up again? And will you focus on AI once you get crackin'? I've always been curious on if you schedule time to work on the sim or do you do it whenever you're in the mood? Having said that, when can we expect the AI stuff to get sorted out? Merry Christmas.
If I remember correctly he said in a thread that he wanted a break over the holidays, and at least a month after that.
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So, did any AI awareness improvements make into Y?
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