can't beleive people actually think that the clutch in this game is any where near realistic. its not even so much of a simulation so much as it is scripted. thats why it only works when you drive it the way the developer intended you too.

i also see a lot of people talking about who it feels like there car and or how it doesn't. i mean not all clutches are the same the way they feel and act is dependent on their specification; size of friction material, weight, friction material it self, pressure plate springs. this is why some clutches can have tons of holding power, but can't take the abuse of lots of slipping.

i can't help but think if this was another sim that everyone would be on the developers case about canned effects.

I don't see what everyone's issue is about the clutch, I've yet to have issues with a clutch, unless i'm purposefully slipping it in gear 6 or so.

I will say yes, you do have to rev to high to get it to kick in, but then again, you get NO feeling whatsoever from the current pedals, and that is the main reason it feels so fake I'm sure.

Get me in LFS and I'm just perfect with a clutch; stick me in a real car and I'm screwed, the feeling is way to different overall. And my main issue in real life is that I'm tempted to floor the gas pedal like I do in LFS and then you just land up with a bunch of issues lol.
Maybe if I had a manual car for a week I'd be a little more helpful.

I agree that it's unrealistic. I've had the clutch in my rl F150 produce enough whitesmoke that there was a small cloud outside the truck, yet I still drive it with that clutch.

I also agree with the reasoning for this. Itt'l discourage nubs from trying to drive like idiots, because they won't make it ten feet.

My only gripe is that when I join a crash server, or drift server, and try the FBM. One hit and it spins the tires backwards, but doesn't stall the engine, destroying the clutch. Lol. I have, however, made two laps around the actual track without destroying the clutch. Kinda hard, tho, on Joystick, but I'm working on getting a better setup soon.

i personally i could of pulled away PRE X10 without going above 1500rpms. the only feel i ever get from the clutch is how strong the pressure plate is.

my first experience with the new clutch was me taking the 1.3 liter hatch and shifting fast from first to second and there was about what felt like 1 second of slipping as the clutch struggled to slow the engine down. this of course created some heat so 2nd to 3rd was worse. so by the time you run through all the gears once or twice the clutch is done, because once it terms just a little red its useless. now i know if i switch slower waiting till the rpm drop and it too grip before getting back on the throttle its not a problem at all.

what really bothers me is the lack of any simulation, this is what attracted me to lfs in the first place. and to see the clutch aspect looked like it was shoehorned in over the span of a weekend after waiting so long for the patch. its dis hearting

Quote from lalathegreat :

i can't help but think if this was another sim that everyone would be on the developers case about canned effects.

Any simulation no matter how good or bad is an approximation of rl
Both simulation by mathematic modeling and by lookup tables have there shortcommings, no one with any sort of knowledge on the subject would deny that

Mathematical modelling though is often desired above lookup tables as it is far more prdictable in nature within a sim. This doesn't mean it will be more accurate in every circumstance and no one that I am aware of is trying to say that the clutch in LFS is exactly like real life or in some circumstances even remotely like real life

What the suporters of the clutch are saying is that it is a step in the right direction and better than not having the clutch modeled at all. It works effectively in race conditions and that is what counts.
It will no doubt be refined as LFS progress, and I'm sure will change once drive trains can be damaged etc.

Quote :

and no one that I am aware of is trying to say that the clutch in LFS is exactly like real life or in some circumstances even remotely like real life

fact still remains, its incorrect and it should not be that way.

Quote :

What the suporters of the clutch are saying is that it is a step in the right direction and better than not having the clutch modeled at all. It works effectively in race conditions and that is what counts.

i guess the thought of improving it is a step in the right direction. but the manner in which it was implemented was about 2 steps backwards

Quote from TestECull :

I agree that it's unrealistic. I've had the clutch in my rl F150 produce enough whitesmoke that there was a small cloud outside the truck, yet I still drive it with that clutch.

AFAIK, you can overheat a clutch in LFS and still drive it if you go easy on the throttle and cause minimum slippage to let it cool off.

Quote from TestECull :

My only gripe is that when I join a crash server, or drift server, and try the FBM. One hit and it spins the tires backwards, but doesn't stall the engine, destroying the clutch.

Remove auto-clutch and you can stall any car to your heart's content, forget to clutch in and it will overheat the clutch if you're on a higher gear.

As a sidenote, since it seems to be the point that several people are missing: LFS does not model clutch damage - it's clutch heat.

Quote from lalathegreat :

fact still remains, its incorrect and it should not be that way.

Well you could say the same about tyre contact patch calculations, the way the tyres heat and cool, the combining of lateral and longitudinal forces, aero physics, smoothness and non variation of road surfaces, implementation of engine performance simulations, vehical impact simulation (collision detection), damage modeling, etc etc etc....

If everything had to be perfect and fully correct under all circustances before being implemented in this alpha (not yet complete) racing simulation then we would have to wait for LFS to be fully complete and finished (i.e. S3) before we could use it

LFS is a work in progress, that means the implementation of some things WILL be incomplete. But will be developed further as time goes on. When incomplete things have been implemented in the past as they have been with the clutch it is because it was deemed that it adds more to the sim than it subtracts at that particular point in time.

From what I have seen from at least the long term supporters of LFS is that they see the current clutch (even with its weekness) is worth having even in this unfinished state as it does add more to the sim than it detracts from it. Not everyone will agree with this but such is life

Personaly I quite enjoy being apart of the development process and am grateful to be able to use LFS before it is complete, rather than wait another few years before it is released as a finished product correct in every respect.

Quote from TestECull :

My only gripe is that when I join a crash server, or drift server, and try the FBM. One hit and it spins the tires backwards, but doesn't stall the engine, destroying the clutch. Lol.

Auto clutch, turn it off

Also FBM sets tend to have such long first yet clutch seem to be similar to street cars instead of race car that those tires just have more grip and engine more torque than clutch can deliver. So for example you can't do 180 degree turn with spinning tires, only with shorter 1st gear that would be possible.

Quote :

If everything had to be perfect and fully correct under all circustances before being implemented in this alpha (not yet complete) racing simulation then we would have to wait for LFS to be fully complete and finished (i.e. S3) before we could use it

Or perhaps those that are saying that everything should be ready instantly, should be waiting until S3 is finished until they test.
It is good to say from feature that is not working fully, but also as everyone knows that there will be new clutch and engine model coming in future, I find complaining rather pointless, maybe post some specifications and prooven situations how clutch has been behaving under clutch topic at improvement section, if there is no clutch topic, make one?

.02

some of us arent playing with expensive controllers/wheels.

these cars have $5k sets of shocks, but a clutch that cant handle a full throttle shift, which is pretty much the equivolent of a stock unit...

and i know about beating the hell out of a clutch and getting a clutch that will last, check my sig, the clutch in my car has a lot more abuse, dyno pulls, 4th/5th gear standing burnouts than that video shows.

.02

Quote from mikespeed95 :

.02

some of us arent playing with expensive controllers/wheels.

these cars have $5k sets of shocks, but a clutch that cant handle a full throttle shift, which is pretty much the equivolent of a stock unit...

and i know about beating the hell out of a clutch and getting a clutch that will last, check my sig, the clutch in my car has a lot more abuse, dyno pulls, 4th/5th gear standing burnouts than that video shows.

.02

I'm pretty sure cars don't have such dampers very long.

This has been asked again and again in many of these clutch threads and as soon as its asked people shut up.

For those that have a problem.....

PLEASE MAKE A REPLAY THAT SHOWS THE FAULT.

We can then see what the problem is. So come on, POST THE REPLAY NOW!

Quote from Woz :

This has been asked again and again in many of these clutch thread.

For those that have a problem.....

PLEASE MAKE A REPLAY THAT SHOWS THE FAULT.

We can then see what the problem is. So come on, POST THE REPLAY NOW!

Btw, no one has posted single replay yet

Personally, I don't see the issue of players flat shifting justifying the creation of an imaginary clutch that overheats due to such shifting, since it doesn't happen in real life. This is a case where the clutch has been given imaginary limitations to prevent flat shifting, and I would have just left the flat shifting as it is, since it's been around for along time, and I don't recall anyone complaining about it.

Does anyone think less of Greg Stewart or Greger Huttu because they flat shifted on their record runs for Grand Prix Legends? It's my opinion and others that GPL and NR2003 have better physics than the current LFS. Players of GPL do use clutches and proper shifting in GPL, but almost all the world records are done via flat shifting, even though the game was patched to allow quicker shift times for the manual clutch players.

So because GPL allowed flat shifting (which I'm pretty sure not one real GP driver of that era would have been doing) LFS should allow it too? Yet no-one has any data, evidence or even a replay of LFS actually being far wrong?

The thing I've been wondering is: how do you guys get the clutch in LFS to overheat by flatshifting?

im using a cheap ps2 type controller.

i also primarily drift, which i do a lot of full throttle shifting and clutch kicking, but only because thats how i've learned to do it IRL.

Quote from JeffR :

and I don't recall anyone complaining about it.

I did, frequently.

Quote :

...

GPL is nearly 10 years old, it doesn't model clutch heat so what possibly makes you think that it's a good comparison to use? If you can find me an example of any car IRL that can 'flat shift' for more than half a lap I'll start listening.

Quote from JeffR :

Does anyone think less of Greg Stewart or Greger Huttu because they flat shifted on their record runs for Grand Prix Legends? It's my opinion and others that GPL and NR2003 have better physics than the current LFS. Players of GPL do use clutches and proper shifting in GPL, but almost all the world records are done via flat shifting, even though the game was patched to allow quicker shift times for the manual clutch players.

Don't quote me on this, but i'm fairly sure Stewart and Huttu weren't using the hardcore 'Grand Prix level' when setting any records.

It's been a while since i've played it but i'm fairly certain-ish that flatshifting in the hardcore level could lead to all sorts of mechanical problems. Dunno about you but i never won a championship in the SP Grand Prix level, to be honest i'd be lucky to finish a race !

ok i'll bite with video possibly.

you guys just wanta video of a car full throttle shifting at a road course?

i've got a ls1 powwred 240sx with a ZOOM twin-plate that i'll be happy to take to www.texasworldspeedway.com and do a HPDE session while *trying* to full throttle shift on every upshift just to demonstrate that the clutch will hold it.

i say try because honestly i'll forget, but i have a camera i can mount inside.

this will be a while before i can do this, but i know my car will handle it. and i know zoom would kinda be happy with another video they can send out showing how i cant break their clutch even when im trying, even though i'm also known for making stock clutches last while drifting

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Don't quote me on this, but i'm fairly sure Stewart and Huttu weren't using the hardcore 'Grand Prix level' when setting any records.

It's been a while since i've played it but i'm fairly certain-ish that flatshifting in the hardcore level could lead to all sorts of mechanical problems. Dunno about you but i never won a championship in the SP Grand Prix level, to be honest i'd be lucky to finish a race !

It would be perfectly impossible to do any long lap with flat shifting, engine stops functioning before one reaches finish line. Maybe on some quite short lap it would work, but I doubt a bit. It was required to lift in that game.

Quote from mikespeed95 :

ok i'll bite with video possibly.

you guys just wanta video of a car full throttle shifting at a road course?

i've got a ls1 powwred 240sx with a ZOOM twin-plate that i'll be happy to take to www.texasworldspeedway.com and do a HPDE session while *trying* to full throttle shift on every upshift just to demonstrate that the clutch will hold it.

i say try because honestly i'll forget, but i have a camera i can mount inside.

this will be a while before i can do this, but i know my car will handle it. and i know zoom would kinda be happy with another video they can send out showing how i cant break their clutch even when im trying, even though i'm also known for making stock clutches last while drifting

Your tires have probably quite weak grip compared to that clutch, there must be wheelspin no matter what gear is in

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Don't quote me on this, but i'm fairly sure Stewart and Huttu weren't using the hardcore 'Grand Prix level' when setting any records.

They were just on the shorter single laps, the engines as jtbo said the engines couldn't last a lap of one of the long tracks.

Quote from mikespeed95 :

you guys just wanta video of a car full throttle shifting at a road course?

i've got a ls1 powwred 240sx with a ZOOM twin-plate that i'll be happy to take to www.texasworldspeedway.com and do a HPDE session while *trying* to full throttle shift on every upshift just to demonstrate that the clutch will hold it.

Your repair bill

Seriously can you not work out the reason why there aren't loads of videos of 'flat shifting' on the web? Going on the basis that a 10 year old computer game let you get away with it (for a lap) wouldn't fill me with confidence.

Quote from JTbo :

It would be perfectly impossible to do any long lap with flat shifting, engine stops functioning before one reaches finish line. Maybe on some quite short lap it would work, but I doubt a bit. It was required to lift in that game.

+@AJP too: Yeah thought so.

In fact i was thinking of installing GPL again and testing it as direct comparison between it and LFS Patch Y, just to see if all those nice hardcore elements we're really as nice as i remembered, or if i'd just imagined them, but, for the life of me i can't find the CD and anyway i really don't fancy having to spend the next 3 weeks downloading and installing all the necessary mods.

Quote :

Does anyone think less of Greg Stewart or Greger Huttu because they flat shifted on their record runs for Grand Prix Legends?

An update - hot lapping in GPL is done with damage off (not "hardcore mode"), so no engine or drivetrain damage. In GPL, with damage on, it was the engine or drivetrain that failed, not the clutch, when flat shifting. There's also a small random chance of engine or drivetrain failure even if a driver does nothing wrong on a long race (not sure if this was edittable in the player.ini file). Note all the laps aren't small, Nordschleife world record is around 7:45, and takes over 8 minutes for most players. Spa is over 3 minutes long.

In GPL, most online play was done with damage on, with the possible exception of the 1000km, 44 lap races at the 1967 Nordschleife that lasted over 7 hours with the required 40 minutes of break time (car in pit). These were a once a year event, and surprisingly, didn't result in any divorces.

Anway, the point about flat shifting in GPL, is that players accepted it for hot lapping, or damage off races. In my opinion, engine and/or drivetrain damage (like loss of a gear) would be better than clutch overheating.

Quote from Mazz4200 :

GPL - can't find the CD

Download the GPL 2004 demo, it's all setup, all cars, but just one track. You'll have to get the other tracks from your cd if you can find it. Sold out software (online store) may still have them for $5 (USA).

Quote :

Seriously can you not work out the reason why there aren't loads of videos of 'flat shifting' on the web?

Every race car with a "no-lift" shifter is technically being flat shifted. The main and syncro clutches are just designed to handle the abuse.