no one needs to make a video because its clear that the so called clutch simulation isn't really a sim at all. i just can't get over that you guys are actually think that its ok. reminds me off when u guys argue of how some aspect of another sim is bad because of hows it done.
We all can agree that you can get clutches that can handle alot more abuse than currently in some cars in LFS. No one is saying otherwise.
The road cars in LFS are not highly modified drift or pimped rides for street racing, therefore it is reasonable to assume that the road cars don't have twin plate clutches and such but more likely have just slightly heavier duty clutches than standard production cars. This is what is recommended by engineers as a compromise between performance and easy everyday driving. My view is that the road cars in LFS are just slightly modified versions of standard factory production cars based on the 1980's era, that in rl would be used for track days and normal driving inbetween. With such a view the clutch behaviour of the road cars in LFS seems very reasonable to me.
The race cars in LFS, which I've done very little testing in at this point, may or may not be similar to real racing cars. If the clutch does tend to heat in them a bit too quickly though, I don't see it as detrimentaly detracting from the racing experience because it will punish bad driving until such time as other mechanical failures are simulated in LFS. Currently heat in the clutch may slow you down, in a future version a mechanical failure would finish your race.
I think the differences of opinion is mostly about peoples expectations of what the cars in LFS reperesent.
this is true on my application somewhat, but even on the game if the tires are spinning the clutch still gets hot. it seems to be a constant reaction to the action, with no difference to the situation, i.e. if the tires are spinning IRL the clutch will just roast them, but in this game if the tires are spinning the e-clutch still roasts because thats waht its programmed to do.
also clutchkicking fries clutches. i got the clutch meter going and kill a clutch every lap or so.
you mean you never watched the flatshift olympics on specialtube?
most people dont do it because they either
1) have a racecar with a dogbox
2) know htey dont and use the clutch
3) have electronics
how do you take replay and upload it, and honestly i dont feel like taking time to demonstrate something that can be easily proven by driving up to a wall after pressing f9, flooring it in the dirt in 3rd gear, hitting hte clutch and watching the clutch fry because thats how the game is setup.
lfs is an awesome game and im not trying to insult it im just saying the clutch thing is annoying and from real life experience its not very realistic.
When you've finished doing whatever you're doing press 2 and give it a name. Then come in here and click the manage attachments button in your post and point it at the file you've just made in the SPR folder.
Also I think most realise that the clutch heat issue isn't 100% right now, but it's the best we've got at the moment so enjoy and keep your fingers crossed (but don't hold your breath) that Patch Z is right around the corner.
If you look at teh pedals you can clearly see that Tsuchiya lifts throttle on upshifts.
You are obviously shifting very poorly if you get one second of slip inbetween any gear, you must be flooring the throttle too eairly before the clutch has even remotely grabed.
You must have not ever flat shifted a car in RL because I have in my car and the clutch slips and burns for more than a second and is way slower than shifting properly. I can't say anything about heat though because I know it will cause the clutch some harm, so I make sure to not slip the clutch like that again, the clutch cools down before it becomes unuseable.
Aperently it is not clear because then this argument/discussion would not be happening.
I'm terrible drifter, but I did try my best, only time I get significiant clutch temp is when I don't put enough rpm so tires spin barely, having huge amount of grip and clutch started to slip a bit, but kicking clutch seemed not to cause heat.
you might of missed the point i was trying to make, point is i don't think a 1.3 liter engine can create that amount of torque.
@woz i think there a few different arugments but i feel they all stem from the fact that the clutch simulation is wrong. some people feel it heats up to fast, some feel it has to much grip, some feel it dosent have enough grip. this is a characteristic of scripted behavior. it works perfect in one area and dead wrong in another.
i personally don't have a problem with the clutch when am racing. i understand the scripted nature of the clutch. what bothers me is the way he choose to implement clutch.
you don't write the outcome, you write the simulation to see its own outcome.
too me its similar to the fake force feed back effects in ISI games that everyone hates because its a cannned effect. so how is this scripted clutch behavior a step in the right direction.
I don't buy even half second that clutch would be scripted, clearly it is simulated, when there is slip, there is heat and more pressure and rpm causes more heat than less rpm and less pressure.
He's lifting on downshifts (shifter is auto-blipping for him, but he's also trying to brake smoothly), but not on upshifts, at least not most of them. Another no lift sequential shifter example, BMW 320i STW from www.supercarchallenge.nl. Turn down the sound as the rear end is really loud.
LFS cars are being raced on tracks, not fun runs, but actual wheel to wheel racing. I'm not aware of any wheel to wheel racing based on bone stock road cars without some modifications, even if just for safety reasons.
I believe that the tranny, drive shaft, axles, or differential will break long before a clutch ever does because of flat shifting. Compare the amount of energy dissipated by the brakes versus clutch where every shift is a flat shift and braking energy dissipation will be many times that of the clutch energy disspation, and the clutch components are huge in comparason to the brakes. So better stated, I don't believe a normal clutch can be made to slip due to overheating from flat shifting, and that only by wearing the clutch down will it ever slip. If I recall correctly, the LX6 lap record at Blackwood was done using only 3 of the 6 gears on the car, that's not a lot of shifting.
The point of my thread is that real clutches aren't going to slip due to the heat generated by flat shifting. Obviously, flat shifting is likely to break powertrain components, but the clutch isn't going to be the weak link here, and failure isn't going to be a slipping clutch. Many street car clutches are designed to slip to protect the transmission during a launch, but even repeated runs at a drag strip doesn't worsen the slippage until the clutch is physically worn out. Actually in cars with such a clutch, it's better to launch by dropping the clutch at a specific rpm and let the tires spin, a common method used by magazine testers when doing time to speed or time to distance runs for car testing.
Last time I checked, XRT had all comfy interior parts and no roll cage or anything like that, this would indicate rather different story than what you are telling here
So Jeff, you are basicly saying that clutch should slip only when temp is going to be bit higher than sun's surface temp?
It is not good that we have now clutch what we have, which is going to have wear later with all other characteristics?
When I burned perfectly good clutch, it kept few time rather ok, slipping of course quite a bit, but very soon it started to slip more and more, 5 laps flatshifting around blackwood is perhaps what you could compare it to last after few clutch drops at nax rpm and 2nd gear. Car had bit over 70hp and 2nd gear was close what XRT hard track set has 1st gear, just bit taller.
Is problem that it is clutch temp, what if it would be clutch wear and bar would not go back, would that be better?
Maybe it's different outside the USA, but in the USA, all santcioned road races require roll cages, external battery cut-offs, water instead of radiator fluid, no usage of air condition (no dripping of water on the track), ... For track days, where drivers are not competing with each other, but just doing fun runs on a track, then roll cages are not required, however, there are still rules about using water instead of coolant in the radiator, ...
No, but it's going to have to get as hot as failing brakes would before it would start sliping, since the materials are similar, and flat shifting simply isn't going to generate that amount of heat, since it can't be maintained for anywhere near the time that the brakes are applied, and the power involved is much less. Brakes can decelerate at 1g or so at all speeds. Few cars can pull 1g in first gear, and virtually no street car can pull 1 g in second gear, and shift times are much smaller in duration that braking times. Flat shifting involves much less power involved over a much shorter time compared to braking, so the heat generation is relatively small by comparason.
automatic transmissions always "flat shift" and don't overheat
Maybe a better point to make is the fact that automatic transmissions have clutches that are "flat shifted" on every shift. In order to smooth out the shifts, the clutches for the two combinations of gears involved in a shift are delibrately programmed to slip simultaneously for a smooth transition. This is a huge amount of clutch slippage compared to flat shifting with a manual, and yet automatic transmissions don't experience clutch failure due to heat.
when i sat scripting i maen very loosely simulated. some simple formula
example
X amount of slip creates Y amount of heats
Z amount of clutch grip is dependent on Y
more heat = less grip
of course there is one or two other varibles that affect the execution, like a variable to decide how fast it heats up or something like that
thats pretty much lfs clutch "simulation" while this works when you drive it like you intend it too. it fails when you try and experiment.
the problem here is that there just too many generalizations. in real life the physics is little more complex. in addition in real life clutches are different that is they have specifications that give them characteristics.
IE
clutch material
different materials have different grip.
clutch material area
actual area prob dosent effect the grip but it prob has effect on heating and heat decipation. this is maybe why f1 clutch are small(for weight saving) but as a result can't hold alot of heat
pressure plate strength
etc
i personally felt that this sort of stuff should have been simulated. and i don't really get the feeling its taking into account. also lets not forget the physics of how they interact with each other. these are the components that give the clutches their feel so their interactions needed to be simulated prob
This isn't true, unless temperature reaches the point that it literally melts the friction surface, causing it to glaze. Once glazed, the glazed surface will have to be worn off before the brakes (or clutch) work again.
If more heat = less grip then why do drag and high end road race vehicles preheat their tires? Drag racers do this via burnouts, road racers use tire heaters. Obviously tires can get overheated, but hot tires stick better than warm or cool tires. More heat does not mean less grip.
The materials used in brakes and clutches can handle a lot of heat.
As I just posted, automatic transmissions do worse than flat shifting on every shift, yet it's not a problem.
Try doing a web search for "clutch overheat" and all you'll find are articles about pre-mature clutch wear, or clutch chatter (warped plate), and nothing about clutch slippage due to over heating. A warped clutch will cause a lot of vibration, but it will still engage. Do a web search for "brake overheat", and you find a lot of references to brake fade. If you do a web search for "clutch fade", the hits will mostly be fluid related, or travel problems due to thermal expansion, but not due to friction material geting overheated and lowering it's coefficient of friction.
ok i just wanted to start off by saying this is a great video GAME and its really fun and its pretty realistic.
i drift on it a lot. the clutch thing annoys me as several tecniques i use in real life are affected by the clutch heat thing, and as someone who drifted proffesionally for 3 years i know that it is not realistic.
i think there needs to be balance considering that in all reality this is a video game, and sometimes too much realism is honestly, too much.
you dont have the feel of a real car, you dont have the control of a real car, the seat in the pantsness, teh ability to blow bearing specs putting your motor together, its a video game.
i think the clutch heat thing is a really cool idea, but in all practicality its a lot more hassle than its worth, and the game was better without it.
Well maybe for drifters but the clutch heat is definitely a huge improvement as far as racing is concerned. This is from someone who has used a clutch in LFS for more than three years now and to put it simply it's far more realistic overall now than it has ever been.
I'm all for finding a balance between realism and playability but the situation before this patch simply wasn't it. It would be nice if LFS could include some difficulty levels though where some things like clutch heat are disabled. Mainly for new drivers but also for those who simply prefer it without.
You have to really, really be trying to put heat in your clutch in LFS to succeed (as it seems to me). I think part of the problem is people are flatshifting while using auto clutch, and this is just unrealistically slow. If you were flatshifting in real life, you would spend much less time on the clutch.
What the hell is a 'no-lift' shifter? Care for a link?
The reason no other sim (and LFS X) didn't have this 'issue' is because they don't simulate clutch heat that doesn't mean to say they're right though.
Without bothering to watch them again. The Dutch Supercars normally have extremely advanced electronics and ignoring the fact it would be physically impossible to change without using the clutch (that I'm pretty sure he will be doing) it would not make sense to have an auto-blip without an auto-cut. As for the F1 car that automatically manages the throttle and clutch in gearshifts.
If by this 'no-lift' stuff you're just meaning shifting without lifting off the throttle then of course that's possible so long as you have another method of cutting the engine during the shift.
i'm not. look at the video in my sig to see the kind of real life abuse a clutch gets. now replicate that in live for speed. lasts about a lap if i drive like i do IRL.
Not that I'm doubting you or what you do as I've never abused a car, but can you recreate the exact conditions in LFS with the cars/tyres available currently? It seems to be from reading the info on the youtube video that your car is specifically made to do what it does - unless I'm reading it all wrong.
Aren't you now missing something? You happen to have highly tuned vehicle with custom parts in it, that is build for drifting and such abuse in mind, in LFS none of cars is build like that.
I would have to agree with ajp71 on this one, in that the car has a electronic package installed which limits revs on upshifts etc. So not like the flatshifting done in LFS.
So holding a car on an incline for a minute results in the equivelant wear of 5,000 miles of normal use. What then do you think the equivelant wear of flatshifting (without throttle cut or rev limiting electronics) or riding the clutch at high revs would be? Considering also that the average life expectancy for a standard clutch under normal road use is considered to be 80 - 120,000 miles.
