I just tried the new patch last night, and was quite impressed with the changes. I particularly like the improved realism in shifting, and the FBM is a nice car to have some fun in.

I had a quick look through the Improvement Suggestions to see if this may have already been mentioned, but couldn't find it anywhere, so here goes:

I race (and have raced) a number of sequential gearbox racecars - a F3000, a Mondeo Super Tourer and a Ford Mustang. In each car the 'normal' shifting method is the same, and closely approximates how it works now with Patch Y. However, if you happen to be going for a fast lap or need to use it for whatever reason, there is an 'alternate' method:

As the engine approaches the rev limit, pre load the shifter in preparation for the next shift. As the engine reaches the rev limit, the reduction in engine power from the limiter is enough to allow the gearbox to shift into the next gear (effectively taking the place of either the slight lift of the throttle, or an electronic 'shift-cut'). This is quite an effective (but possibly less well known) method of shifting, and I will sometimes use it for a qualifying lap or similar.

I understand Scawen based most of the gearbox updates on his test session in a FBM - the method I've described above may not be approved by the team he was working with, or they just may not have mentioned it to him (we tend not to mention it to guests driving our cars as it has a greater potential for problems to arise).

I would imagine this could be a reasonably easy thing to implement, and would bring LFS another small increment forwards in the excellent realism it already has.

It actually works like that already, but it's quite hard to produce while cornering or in higher gears, easy in the start though, 1st to 2nd needs no lift at all and 3rd sometimes needs a quick doubletap on the paddle (no lift). Haven't experimented with this but I'm quite sure it works in every gear, will burn the clutch quite badly though.

If I understand correctly, you're talking about bouncing off the rev-limiter instead of lifting off the throttle, correct?

IIRC this was brought up in one of the TEST Patch threads. The user specifically stated that in a Formula BMW (which he claimed to have driven) that this was standard technique, and should be included in LFS.

If this is the case, this receives a +1 from me.

Quote from MAGGOT :

If I understand correctly, you're talking about bouncing off the rev-limiter instead of lifting off the throttle, correct?

Correct.

I can't speak for a Formula BMW, but as I said, in the various cars that I have raced, this technique works.

There is essentially zero temperature implication for the clutch. The only thing that may be affected is wear/damage on the gear dogs, but these can be just as easily damaged when shifting using the alternative methods of: shifting with the clutch in, or lifting the throttle to unload the dogs, or using an electronic shift cut.

The only reason (for me) against using it all the time in real life is that running against the rev limiter is detrimental to the engine in the long term, and the least time spent doing it, the longer your engine will last.

I think the reason it doesn't work is due to the type of limiter in LFS - I don't know too much about it but someone had posted explaining that there are two types and the one in LFS simply lowers the throttle input keeping the revs stable rather than going on/off.

I don't have a real fact about the limiter in LFS, but it seems that it is supposed to be like in most racing cars, cutting ignition. Or at least it tries to sound like it, it just doesn't do it really well, it's a one improvement what I would like to see in future too. Not maybe the most important but nice on still. It would be cool to hear that banging when you hit the limiter.

IRL there's at least two very common ways to limit RPM, to cut ignition and to limit the amount of fuel injected to the engine. Second one is very bad of course, because that's when you get very lean mixture and it can melt your engine fast, that's one reason why I don't dear to hit the ~6000 rpm limiter of my pinto engine. Race cars use ignition cut because it doesn't brake your engine, only exhaust.

When talking about sequential sifting, yes I think it would be one nice improvement to be able to shift like samdale mentioned. And in cars what have ignition cut to limit rpm during shifting, it would be nice to really hear that one or more bang you get with that system. One little thing, what have major effect with the racing athmosphere.

Quote from axus :

I think the reason it doesn't work is due to the type of limiter in LFS - I don't know too much about it but someone had posted explaining that there are two types and the one in LFS simply lowers the throttle input keeping the revs stable rather than going on/off.

I think the current LFS limiter is ignition based but just far too quick to let it bounce. If it lowered the throttle position I think we'd see it on the throttle bar.

Quote from MAGGOT :

If I understand correctly, you're talking about bouncing off the rev-limiter instead of lifting off the throttle, correct?

IIRC this was brought up in one of the TEST Patch threads. The user specifically stated that in a Formula BMW (which he claimed to have driven) that this was standard technique, and should be included in LFS.

If this is the case, this receives a +1 from me.

No, he said it's not a standard technique, it could be done but is not recommended. And it's already in LFS, try holding the stick when accelerating towards the limit in gear 1 or 2 Strangely enough it doesn't work in higher gears :S

Here: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=624933#post624933

Quote from axus :

I think the reason it doesn't work is due to the type of limiter in LFS - I don't know too much about it but someone had posted explaining that there are two types and the one in LFS simply lowers the throttle input keeping the revs stable rather than going on/off.

Soft Cut and Hard Cut. Soft cut kicks in a little earlier that 'the limit' and gradually increases the limiting factor in a smooth way, so there is no bouncing off the limiter. Much kinder to engines, but a bit slower to react.

Hard Cut - no cutting effect until the limiter is reached, when the ignition is cut momentarily. This causes the engine to slow down (but only slightly, because the car/wheels/transmission won't allow sudden speed changes, obviously). It's mostly a lack of noise, and a sudden lack of acceleration that people think is a deceleration.

LFS actually has a hard cut limiter, but with perfectly rigid cranks, driveshafts, conrods, cylinder heads, primary and layshafts etc the bouncing is pretty much non-existent. So, in effect, it's a soft cut limiter in LFS, because the end result is more like that.

Just my £8 (or whatever $0.02 is these days)

what do you mean by hard or soft cut? fuel cut, spark cut or both?

Quote from tristancliffe :

LFS actually has a hard cut limiter, but with perfectly rigid cranks, driveshafts, conrods, cylinder heads, primary and layshafts etc the bouncing is pretty much non-existent. So, in effect, it's a soft cut limiter in LFS, because the end result is more like that.

Just my £8 (or whatever $0.02 is these days)

If people actually knew what their poor crankshafts went through when they go bouncing their cars off the limiter every chance they get, they might drive a bit better

great explanation too