Quote from JeffR :

In your case, did the clutch continue to get worse, or did it stay about the same during that run? Did the clutch get hot enough that you could smell "burnt" clutch?

No as I'm a pussy and babied clutch when I noticed it started to slip Old clutch did cause smell, though and I noticed it became slippery after few laps, poor thing never recovered from abuse, so needed to replace that clutch).

Also I can provoke it to slip quite easily, if I would do flat shifting it would be same as in test patch x30 with XRG(well, car weights around same and has around same amount of hp, bit less torque), that much of slip. But still if I add turbo and such it is differential, driveshafts, gearbox that will fail firs, then rods give up and after that comes clutch, even bastard can't take power shifting, it is ok when not touched

I have also tested few company cars in one of my previous jobs, as boss was disgrace to humanity, we then did put some abuse to his vehicles Burned clutch there too and while it takes some effort, it was clearly noticeable that if you just keep throttle floored and shift gears and do launches it does give up around similar distance/usage that 5 laps around BLGP would be, if one does not ease up at that point it gets ruined, but if one babies it a bit it is perfectly good to go after that(well not perfectly, but works). This with Japanese 70hp, very light station wagon.

Linkage problem causes only that 2nd gear is bit hard to get in, that shows in one tight right where you turn towards start/finish line again, corner before that tiny chicane.
And that 50/60euros is for whole day, which means 8 hours of driving, however I have been pretty satisfied for much less as it has been my only car, no rollcage and tires are waaaay too soft, I hope to get back there next summer with some improvements, though.


Difference between US market and European/Japanese markets are that here torque comes at quite high revs compared to US market, specially when talking about LFS era vehicles.

This of course has lead clutch to be much sturdier in US cars, I would imagine it bites quite nice, where cars in here have soft clutch that does not really bite but stops slipping. So when flat shifting such clutch is always in disadvantage as it slips lot and heats a lot in process.

Volvo clutch in other hand is quite harsh, it has 0% 40% and 100% settings that one can easily use, it bites really quick under normal driving, but still slips if I try to powershift.

However I have not much experience from US market cars, only what I have read and heard, so that is bit of question marks to be honest

Dynamic and static frictions are what I believe is where most improvement to LFS clutches will come as I'm not sure if there are both things now in, LFS does everything from some genious formula behind it so I think that is thing that Scawen was going to improve in future, but that man is sometimes bit mysterious when he posts

Sorry for typos, rushing to shop

Quote from lalathegreat :

http://videos.streetfire.net/v ... 339-b6f5-98aa00fe0ac1.htm

talks about clutches and heating and clutches in general

"Heat is the biggest problem, as everywhere in the car"

Sadly, there's a cut right after that, but it implies that clutch heat is something you don't want to have, even if it goes back to normal with a kevlar clutch or the likes...

That said, I agree that restricting the flatshifting with clutch heat rather than engine or drivetrain stress/damage maybe wasn't the best way to do, especially in race cars, where the clutch is engineered to basically not slip at all... Still, having a basic clutch modeled is better than no clutch modeled at all (which would be your scripted clutch lala)...
Maybe you haven't had a look in the threads in the test patch cycle, but a good bit of the second week went into balancing the clutch, where Scawen mentioned that there are various parameters governing the performance of LfS' clutches, pressure from pressure plates being one of it...

Quote from JeffR :

Well yeah, that's the point, the computer does it for the driver, the driver isn't doing any throttle movement, because a human can't release and push back on the throttle in the 30ms to 50ms that the computer can.

There's never been any question that with an ignition cut the driver doesn't lift his foot off the throttle. The cars in LFS that have an ignition cut already allow 'flat shifting' with no penalty.

I would say limiting flat shifting with clutch was best way to given time frame, you have to remember that for patch Y there was deadline, research and creating drivetrain/transmission damage would require quite huge amount of work, also engine damage would require completely new model (which will come at some point).

But engine model alone is several weeks of work, what I understood, getting these to level where all are just like in reallife and thus limiting flat shifting, would take months alone, now add to that all other aspects that needs improving, AI, collision model, maybe even support for dualcore have to be kept in mind as there would be no point to work loads with perfect model that you could not use with dual core engine anymore.

I wouldn't go to route to criticize Scawen's decisions, it won't help anyone, but bring some data, reallife examples, if something is not working properly and then we get window to discuss about issue if it is issue that needs to be discussed at all.

That way everyone wins, I would say.

Quote from ajp71 :

There's never been any question that with an ignition cut the driver doesn't lift his foot off the throttle. The cars in LFS that have an ignition cut already allow 'flat shifting' with no penalty.

Exactly. So I don't really understand what JeffR is on about...

so far ive had problems with the clutch only with the new car.. it overheat because of bumps on the road and thats stupid.. i mean if that was happening in rl champ cars would burn their clutch in 2-3 laps.. it's a race car... not a road car..

Quote from lalathegreat :

http://videos.streetfire.net/v ... 339-b6f5-98aa00fe0ac1.htm

talks about clutches and heating and clutches in general

Like said somewhere above, very informative video, however he never mentioned anything about tolerances for those materials. the video did mention about the kevlar cooling down back to normal, but even it has its tolerances to heat. You can get away with a little clutch burning in some cars.

In the TBO class cars you can eaisly get away with a little slipage here and there, but you definatly can not just flatshift. In the XRT, I usually power shift every upshift, and only get "a little orange"(maybe 2 - 4 pixles) in the clutch temp guage, for a 15 lap race, I just don't let the clutch slip all that much.

And on starts you definatly do not want to "floor" it (maintain peak power) while sliping the clutch. Its much easier and cheaper to replace tires.

Edit: If your having clutch problems when clutch kicking, then maybe you are just not pressing the clutch in far enough to where it is not grabing. If you just release it quick there shouldnt be any problems.

Quote from ajp71 :

I'm sure you do but I can't see your footwork and don't believe you.

are your speakers on?

maybe as someone who's around this stuff and judges it all the time i've just got a well-trained ear. 1/2 my freinds say it just sounds like nascar with ac/dc.

Like brakes (and tires), there has to be an ideal temp for the clutch/flywheel surfaces, right? or does a cold clutch grip as well as a 'warm' clutch?

Maybe the difference in grip is negligible with temperatures > freezing, but maybe LFS is not simulating this?

Quote :

However I have not much experience from US market cars, only what I have read and heard, so that is bit of question marks to be honest.

It would depend on the car, and not just those made in USA. I would assume that most higher peformance cars, regardless of where they are made, England, Germany, Italy, Japan, USA, ... are going to have stronger clutches. My only experience with burnt clutch was with a 1987 Mustang GT, while it was backed up a long, steep driveway, with the clutch slipping the entire time. It was enough to produce smoke, but even so, the clutch showed no signs of increase slippage while backing up, and worked just fine immediately afterwards. The clutch may have lost about 5000 miles off its lifetime in the process, but it's grip wasn't noticably affected.

So at least in the case of that old Mustang, clutch fade was non-existant. I've never experienced clutch fade in any of the cars I've owned, but I've never flat shifted either, although I have powershifted by slipping the clutch in 2nd gear. I have even launched from a standing start in 4th gear once or twice, and clutch overheating wasn't an issue, but I wasn't doing this repeatedly either.

Quote :

no lift shifters - ignition cut

Note that most no lift shifters cut off fuel, not spark, otherwise the fuel mixture would end up igniting in the exhaust, which is not good. The point about the no lift shifters, especially the fast ones, is that even with the fuel cut, engine rpms aren't going to drop that much during the 50ms down to 30ms shift times just due to the fuel cut, there will be a short period of clutch slippage to rapidly reduce engine rpms during a shift. The clutch, and the remainder of the drive train is designed to deal with the excess torque generated by the rapid rate of decrease in rpms.

Quote :

There has to be an ideal temp for the clutch/flywheel surfaces

Probably, but clutches should be designed to have more than enough grip to function well at any reasonable temperature. Personally, I've noticed that clutches on both my car and motorcycle tend to be a bit grabby when cold, so the grip is probably higher when they are cold. I'm pretty sure that grip will remain strong well below freezing.

This isn't an issue for me, I use two CH USB joysticks for driving, one to steer, one for throttle / brake, like the old style radio control car transmitters, and they have a user programmable driver, and I've already programmed auto-blip and auto-cut to trigger when I use the shift down and up buttons. I'm starting to see similar utilities being made for some wheel and pedal sets.

Quote from JeffR :

Note that most no lift shifters cut off fuel, not spark, otherwise the fuel mixture would end up igniting in the exhaust, which is not good. The point about the no lift shifters, especially the fast ones, is that even with the fuel cut, engine rpms aren't going to drop that much during the 50ms down to 30ms shift times just due to the fuel cut, there will be a short period of clutch slippage to rapidly reduce engine rpms during a shift. The clutch, and the remainder of the drive train is designed to deal with the excess torque generated by the rapid rate of decrease in rpms.

Well, of course, but have you ever burned a clutch in LFS by not lifting in one of the cars that do have a sequential with ignition cut (FXR, XRR...). That would be quite an achievement!

Well the main argument that clutches rarely overheat would be that automatic transmissions "flat shift" on every shift, and don't fade. In an automatic transmission, there is a separate clutch for every gear combination, and a pair of these clutches is deliberately slipped at the same time to smooth out the shifts, even when at full throttle. The time period of this slippage is much longer than any flat shift would be, and yet the clutches don't overheat.

So the real issue is whether or not clutches for manual transmissions in cars similar to ones in LFS could ever overheat due to flat shifting. Maybe there are some real world cars with weak or defective clutches that would suffer from this, but I don't imagine these cars being run in stock form in a competitive race.

So with patch Y, we now have cars with brakes that never fade, drivetrains that never break, but clutches that fade from flat shifting. Are there any cars in the real world with this combination?

To me this isn't an issue of players learning to drive properly, it's an issue of realism in LFS. In my opinion, clutch overheating and failure due to flat shifting was a quick, dirty, and unrealistic change made to LFS in an effort to discourage flat shifting. The fix for flat shifting should have waited until it could have been implemented properly, which would be drive train damage, which is what would happen in real life.

Quote from JeffR :

Well the main argument that clutches rarely overheat would be that automatic transmissions "flat shift" on every shift, and don't fade. In an automatic transmission, there is a separate clutch for every gear combination, and a pair of these clutches is deliberately slipped at the same time to smooth out the shifts, even when at full throttle. The time period of this slippage is much longer than any flat shift would be, and yet the clutches don't overheat.

If that is the case - since I have no idea about auto boxes - then based on what you write:

a. there are multiple clutches - not one clutch to take the brunt
b. those clutches are specifically made to slip for long time periods

Quote :

In my opinion, clutch overheating and failure due to flat shifting was a quick, dirty, and unrealistic change made to LFS in an effort to discourage flat shifting.

My opinion is that it was implemented based on Scawen's track experience with the FBMW. He probably encountered it after spinning out - or he had a talk with the mechanics when getting info to model the FBMW and was told that it can be an issue, which makes it important to add if it is to be used in the V1 challenge thing. Seeing as it shouldn't just be an issue just for one car - he made a generic model of it.

Also, I seriously think it's not as much an issue as you mention it being on the road cars. I tried flatshifting the FXO, which is basically close to a typical front-wheel road car, and could easily go at it for over 10 laps without overheating the clutch to a point that it was unusable.

In races with cars that don't have ignition cut I have yet to overheat a clutch - actually, have yet to even see the CT gauge go more than one 1 pixel wide. And all I do is just let off the throttle for about 2-3mm worth of travel (which isn't what I'd call pedal-mashing or stomping).

Quote from xaotik :

My opinion is that it (clutch overheating) was implemented based on Scawen's track experience with the FBMW.

That's hard to believe. Formula BMW is based on a motorcycle engine, BMW's 1.2 liter inline 4 @140hp, with a sequential shift Hewland racing transmission and a Sachs racing clutch. The car only weighs 1001 lbs. Clutch overheating isn't going to be an issue with anything but deliberate abuse.

http://www.formulabmwusa.com/technology_technicalspecs

http://www.hewland-engineering ... svga/productrange/ftr.htm

Again, my point is that for most cars, especially those being raced, flat shifting breaks drivetrains, and doesn't cause the clutches to fail from overheating. The clutch in these cars is never the weak link in the drivetrain.

Quote from JeffR :

Well the main argument that clutches rarely overheat would be that automatic transmissions "flat shift" on every shift, and don't fade.

Forget about automatic transmissions, they are completely different and irrelevant.

Quote :

So the real issue is whether or not clutches for manual transmissions in cars similar to ones in LFS could ever overheat due to flat shifting. Maybe there are some real world cars with weak or defective clutches that would suffer from this, but I don't imagine these cars being run in stock form in a competitive race.

A racing clutch is far more likely to burn up than a road clutch, because it needs to be light but also as soft as possible. You don't seem to have grasped this concept.

Quote :

So with patch Y, we now have cars with brakes that never fade, drivetrains that never break, but clutches that fade from flat shifting. Are there any cars in the real world with this combination?

Nope, I hope to discuss why LFS's brake fade is over done with you in the not to distant future

Quote from JeffR :

Clutch overheating isn't going to be an issue with anything but deliberate abuse.

Or spinning out and not clutching in in time or staying in a high gear - which, incidentally, is the only time I've seen the clutch overheat on that car in LFS.

Quote from JeffR :

So with patch Y, we now have cars with brakes that never fade, drivetrains that never break, but clutches that fade from flat shifting. Are there any cars in the real world with this combination?

I really wonder what the arguments will be when all that is implemented.

Quote from JTbo :

THIS

Motopark?

Quote :

A racing clutch is far more likely to burn up than a road clutch, because it needs to be light but also as soft as possible.

Racing clutches are made out of more heat resistant materials than road cars clutches. The friction materials are carbon - kevlar fiber or ceramic, which are very heat resistant, and have a much higher coefficient of friction than road car clutches.

Quote :

soft

These are clutches, not tires, high friction clutch materials aren't "soft", ceramic is stickier and "harder" than a road car clutch.

Quote :

overheating clutch ... spinning out and not clutching in in time or staying in a high gear

Spinning out and not clutching in time kills the engine (usually causes an engine to spin backwards), why would it cause the clutch to overheat, since it's not going to slip when a car spins out? Maybe if it was a slipper clutch as used on some motorcycles, but the FBMW uses a Sachs single plate dry racing clutch, not a motorcycle like multiplate wet slipper clutch.

Quote :

dual clutch gearboxes

Every shift with a dual clutch gearbox is a flat shift, and the clutches don't overheat. For road cars, these typically use wet multiplate clutches, but dry clutches are under development, and some race cars already have dry clutch based dual clutch gearboxes.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/dual-clutch-transmission.htm

Quote :

Seamless shift gearboxes

"A modern F1 clutch is a multi-plate carbon design with a diameter of less than four inches (100 mm), weighing less than 2.20 lb (1.00 kg) and handling 900 hp (670 kW) or so. ... introduction of the new seamless shift gearbox, a type of dual-clutch transmission which nearly eliminates the brief power interruption during a gear change."

During a shift on a seamless shift transmission, power from the engine may be cut very momentarily, but only while the engine inertia is driving the gears at the equivalent of full power (or more). Some systems rely on momentary clutch slippage or have reverted to shocks / springs in the drive train to reduce the shock during a near instant gear change.

With seamless shift gearboxes, the next gear is enaged before the current one is disengaged (at least on upshifts). In the case of Formula 1, all the car makers have their own proprietary method of implementing these, so there aren't a lot of details.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_car

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/42017

Whilst the materials are 'harder', the higher coefficient of friction means that when slipping they generate a lot more heat. In effect, they can be likened to a race tyre being softer than a road tyre, even though it's not a direct analogy.

Even in F1, with a single clutch, which is all they have in F1, you CANNOT have more than two gears engaged at one time - that is bad, especially at high gearshaft rpms. Seamless shift is NOT seamless, it's just less of a seam. Whilst they may use brief slips of the clutch to enable shorter shift times, that has NOTHING to do with the 'problems' people are having with the LFS clutches. There isn't a clutch in real life that can withstand several seconds of high rpm, high slippage, large torque transfer over and over again. Drag cars (that use a manual clutch) let them cool, or even change them every run. F1 cars are notorious for clutch problems (or at least they were until electronics arrived to sort out the mess the drivers caused). Automatic gearboxes are very different inside, with wet clutches, and planetary gears etc.

The simple fact is that the LFS clutches, whilst almost certainly not 'perfect' are very much up to the task of what they are meant for, and allow racing, drifting, cruising, and manouvering with ease, without melting. If you drive like a twat then it's going to last a shorter amount of time.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Whilst the materials are 'harder', the higher coefficient of friction means that when slipping they generate a lot more heat.

The amount of heat is proportional to the power consumed by the clutch, which is somewhat independent of the coefficient of friction. A clutch with a higher coefficient of friction will just require less plate pressure to consume the same amount of power and generate the same output torque than a clutch with lower coefficient of friction.

Clutches that operate at higher temperatures dissipate their heat faster because of the higher difference between their operating temperature, and the ambient temperature outside.

Quote :

There isn't a clutch in real life that can withstand several seconds of high rpm, high slippage, large torque transfer over and over again. Drag cars (that use a manual clutch) let them cool, or even change them every run.

If you've ever watched the show pinks, the finals require that cars be run 3 times in a row, without a cool down period. These aren't top fuel dragsters, but they have a lot more power than most of the cars in LFS.

Top fuel dragsters are slipping the clutch for the about the first 3 seconds of a run (about 1/8th mile), limiting the torque from a 8000hp engine so the tires don't slip, reaching a temperatures over 1000 degrees Farenheight, yet they still fully engage and don't slip for the final part of a run. The clutch parts are replaced after every run due to wear.

Quote :

There isn't a clutch in real life that can withstand several seconds of high rpm, high slippage, large torque transfer over and over again.

Which doesn't occur when flat shifting, because the time period of slippage is very short (few tenths of a second), unless the clutch is defective or simply too weak. Unless a driver slowly releases the clutch while power shifting, which isn't flat shifting, there isn't going to be a heat issue, but it's likely that the drive train will be broken.

Quote :

Road cars are getting "smarter" these days.

Torque limiters in the ECU auto-cut power (fuel cut), if excessive torque is sensed at the clutch plate to protect the drive train. High peformance cars like the Corvette Z06 have these.

Dual clutch transmissions (DCT's) are used on Volkswagen cars these days: Audi TT and A3. Bugatti Veyron 16.4. SEAT Altea, Toledo, and León. Škoda Octavia. Volkswagen Passat, Golf GTI/R32, Touran, Eos, Golf, Caddy, and Jetta/Bora.

BMW offers SMG's - Sequential Manual Gearboxes - on some of their cars.

As time goes on, intelligent transmissions in both road and race cars will elminate any issues associated with flat shifting, to allow faster shift times without drivetrain damage, and for minor improvement in fuel econonmy in city driving. By the time S3 is released, flat shifting in road and race cars will no longer be an issue for most of those cars, except for a few racing classes that won't allow it.

Drag clutches have no need to be particularly light or compact, in the top drag cars they are one of, if not, the most important components for performance. For this reason they are obviously designed to take the loads they need to (most of the time). In a conventional racing car with a sequential gearbox, like the FBM, the only use of the clutch is to pull away from the start line, after which it needs to be a light and compact as possible with minimal slip. If a small single seater had a clutch capable of normal road driving, let alone enduring high rev, high slip situations it would be overkill and add weight, rotational mass and packaging issues.

Quote from JeffR :

Torque limiters in the ECU auto-cut power (fuel cut), if excessive torque is sensed at the clutch plate to protect the drive train. High peformance cars like the Corvette Z06 have these.

Dual clutch transmissions (DCT's) are used on Volkswagen cars these days: Audi TT and A3. Bugatti Veyron 16.4. SEAT Altea, Toledo, and León. Škoda Octavia. Volkswagen Passat, Golf GTI/R32, Touran, Eos, Golf, Caddy, and Jetta/Bora.

BMW offers SMG's - Sequential Manual Gearboxes - on some of their cars.

All those systems remove the position of the throttle pedal from controlling the output of the engine during a gear shift, for this reason they're all exactly the same as lifting for a gear shift normally rather than this power shifting nonsense.

Quote :

Quote :

Dual clutch transmisstions, seamless shift transmissions, ...

All those systems remove the position of the throttle pedal from controlling the output of the engine during a gear shift.

No throttle cut is done on dual clutch systems, they are simply designed to use clutch slippage to reduce the shock of shifting gears, so in fact they are effecively being flat shifted on every gear change. It's essentially the same as an automatic transmission, but without using a fluid clutch.

In the case of a Formula 1 cars, there's over 1 g of aerodynamic drag at high speed, so any time spent without power during a 6th to 7th gear shift would slow the car down faster than maximum braking on a road car. Modern seamless shift transmission usage for Formula 1 started in 2005. The point of seamless shift transmissions is to apply a smooth torque transition during a shift, not only to minimize shift time, but also to reduce the shock on the drivetrain during such fast shift times. The torque at the driven part of the clutch remains about the same as full throttle output of the engine during a shift. Fuel cut off only occurs during the brief period where the engine inertia due to drop in rpms produces more torque than full throtttle application. This technology also involves some computer controlled slippage of the clutch on every shift. There's no period of reduced output torque to the drivetrain during a shift, the goal is to minimize any transitions in torque into the gearbox during a gear shift. This is not the same as lifting on the throttle during a shift, which would introduce a huge transition in torque (off and back on again) into the drivetrain.

back on topic - Again my point is that with Patch Y, it's not about driving methods, but that LFS now has road cars with brakes that never fade, drivetrains that never break, but clutches that fail due to overheating due to very brief periods of slippage caused by flat shifting. It may be a quick and dirty "fix" to reduce flat shifting, but it's not realistic. Now it's obvious that cars being raced will have their brakes upgraded if the stock brakes fade under racing condition. It's also obvoius, that weak or poorly designed clutches are going to be upgraded as well. The weak link on any real race prepped car will always be the drive train if a driver truly flat shifts, and drive train breakage is what should have been implemented to discourage flat shifting.

I'm not opposed to discouraging flat shifting, I just belive that drive train breakage would be a lot more realistic than having clutches that fade. I do feel that auto-cut and auto-blip should have been left in the game as an option. After all it is a game, with a wide range of player abilities and controllers.

Quote from JeffR :

No throttle cut is done on dual clutch systems, they are simply designed to use clutch slippage to reduce the shock of shifting gears, so in fact they are effecively being flat shifted on every gear change. It's essentially the same as an automatic transmission, but without using a fluid clutch.

In the case of a Formula 1 cars, there's over 1 g of aerodynamic drag at high speed, so any time spent without power during a 6th to 7th gear shift would slow the car down faster than maximum braking on a road car. Modern seamless shift transmission usage for Formula 1 started in 2005. The point of seamless shift transmissions is to apply a smooth torque transition during a shift, not only to minimize shift time, but also to reduce the shock on the drivetrain during such fast shift times. The torque at the driven part of the clutch remains about the same as full throttle output of the engine during a shift. Fuel cut off only occurs during the brief period where the engine inertia due to drop in rpms produces more torque than full throtttle application. This technology also involves some computer controlled slippage of the clutch on every shift. There's no period of reduced output torque to the drivetrain during a shift, the goal is to minimize any transitions in torque into the gearbox during a gear shift. This is not the same as lifting on the throttle during a shift, which would introduce a huge transition in torque (off and back on again) into the drivetrain.

back on topic - Again my point is that with Patch Y, it's not about driving methods, but that LFS now has road cars with brakes that never fade, drivetrains that never break, but clutches that fail due to overheating due to very brief periods of slippage caused by flat shifting. It may be a quick and dirty "fix" to reduce flat shifting, but it's not realistic. Now it's obvious that cars being raced will have their brakes upgraded if the stock brakes fade under racing condition. It's also obvoius, that weak or poorly designed clutches are going to be upgraded as well. The weak link on any real race prepped car will always be the drive train if a driver truly flat shifts, and drive train breakage is what should have been implemented to discourage flat shifting.

I'm not opposed to discouraging flat shifting, I just belive that drive train breakage would be a lot more realistic than having clutches that fade. I do feel that auto-cut and auto-blip should have been left in the game as an option. After all it is a game, with a wide range of player abilities and controllers.

I am sure that once gear and linkage damage and the like are introduced we will have months and months of bitching, as we have now because all the people that are STILL driving in an unrealistic manner will have their bad habits cause damage to their ride.

BTW. The EXACT same happened when the damage and tyre hear/wear was added to LFS, I KNOW you were around for that because of your join date. How short your memory appears to be. You were also around when KB help was crippled . Wow what a fight that was. Have you forgotten that as well.

LFS is NOT going to get easier. Each new release will need the driver to think EVEN more about car sympathy. Something too many take for granted at the moment. Treat a car like many treat LFS cars and the car will be F**ked in no time. FACT!

The thing I dont understand is that you keep going on about the GTR and BF1 cars. If you can get the clutch to overheat in them you must be doing something VERY VERY wrong, they blip/cut for you so you CAN flat shift all you want.

We also all KNOW that drag clutches can take all the power, they are designed for it. They also HAVE NO RELATION to a road or race clutch which do not need to deal with the same brutal loading. Why keep bringing them up. Its a little like saying "which is better, Cheese or Pepsi?"

I will ask the following of you again.

PLEASE post a SPR of what you think the fault is. PUT your money where your mouth is and SHOW US what you feel the problem is.

Quote :

The thing I dont understand is that you keep going on about the GTR and BF1 cars.

I only mention their real world equivalents to explain current technology. I also mentioned dual clutch transmissions, which effectively are always flast shifted, and put in all those car divisions of Volkswagen as listed in previous posts.

Quote :

If you can get the clutch to overheat in them ...

I've already mentioned it's not an issue for me, as I programmed auto-cut and auto-blip via my joystick driver. Every shift is a perfect shift with just the touch of a button. My point is that drivetrain breakage is a realistic consequence of flat shifting, clutch overheating isn't.

Can't you think of the clutch heat as a substitute for driveline failures? A learning tool for us before the damage model is updated.

I teaches us to shift properly and prevents some of the whining when, in the future, the devs add other driveline failures.

About flat shifting.
I think you lot are confusing "shifting with your foot to the floor" and "shifting with the engine at full blast". Before engine management this was the same thing. Nowadays it ain't.
That VW dual clutch is a whole different thing and none of the cars in LFS have that kind of transmission.

PS. JeffR, why aren't you posting the SPR file of your problem?