This belonged in a separate thread, so I've created this thread.

All CH USB products, joysticks, flight yokes, pedals, throttles, gamepads, ..., include a driver feature (control manager) that provides mapping and scripting. The mapping is used to remap axis and outputs to virtual devices, mostly to create a single virtual device for games that don't support multiple controllers. The scripting is essentially a programming language that can control the output of axis data, button presses, keystrokes, mouse clicks, ....

CH USB controllers are not the only controllers to have scripting capability. The standard Logitech driver also includes scripting, including the output of both button presses and axis output, but I haven't confirmed if the standard driver would allow creation of auto-cut and auto-blip or if some special "wingman" utility would be needed.

The issue is that the scripting component can be used to create auto-cut and auto-blip.. I currently use two CH USB joysticks for game play, both racing and flight simulation games. I use the right stick to steer (or roll+pitch), the left stick for combined throttle / brake (or throttle/airbrake + rudder), the same as classic transmitters for radio control cars and the same setup as mode 2 (USA) transmitters for radio control aircraft. I often use a script for auto-cut and auto-blip for racing games that don't have this feature, and now LFS is one of those games because of Patch Y. In my clutch overheating thread, I mentioned this scripting capability, and it's clear some players consider this to be cheating.

So where to draw the line, and is it even possible to detect usage of script capable controllers? What if the throttle cut and blip are accomplished via a second and third button on a controller? In this case, the player is still issuing the control inputs, just using buttons instead of axis movements, not a lot different from gamepad players.

Note, I rarely play LFS online anymore, and I don't submit hot laps.

I don't get why people interested in a simulator would want anything like that, but whatever floats your boat. Its not cheating imo, but I do consider it somewhat lame.

OT: Am I the only one that find LFS to be easier and easier to drive for each patch...?

Quote from hagenisse :

I don't get why people interested in a simulator would want anything like that, but whatever floats your boat. Its not cheating imo, but I do consider it somewhat lame.

OT: Am I the only one that find LFS to be easier and easier to drive for each patch...?

Well, he is using a joy stick instead of a wheel in the first place. Simulating a real environment is not a high priority.

There are situations in the real world where cars that would normally require a throttle blip and clutching on down shifts were modified to use a button to do the blip. If the sanctioning body OK's it, then it is a go. Not a big deal.

If you can figure out how to make the scripts do an auto blip for you... that's your prerogative. It is kind of like finding a technological solution to a problem in a real car.

Quote from hagenisse :

I don't get why people interested in a simulator would want anything like that

Most current simulators have auto-cut and auto-blip as an option so it's a non-issue for those games.

I've mostly used a programmed auto-cut or auto-blip for arcade type racers, mostly to make them sound more realistic when shifting, even though it's a bit slower on some of them. In the case of GPL, most hot laps are done by flat shifting with damage off (otherwise the drivetrain breaks). When I'm not hot lapping in GPL, I use auto-cut and auto-blip from my controller, again, because it sounds better.

Quote from Hallen :

Well, he is using a joy stick instead of a wheel in the first place. Simulating a real environment is not a high priority.

But is LFS really the right game then? Its just an average looking game with few cars and tracks... GT4 or Forza seems more like the thing.

I consider it cheating just because you are deliberatly doing something that the developers(basically the sanctioning body here) removed from the game. If they wanted people to be auto-cutting and auto-blipping then they never would have removed it in the first place.

Quote from hagenisse :

But is LFS really the right game then? Its just an average looking game with few cars and tracks... GT4 or Forza seems more like the thing.

What does that have to do with anything? Other than start another pointless argument.

Quote :

But is LFS really the right game then?

It wasn't until Patch Y was released. If I was that into realisim, I would get a new wheel and pedal setup, but for now it's not that much of an issue. Radio control helicopters are difficult to control, and they are controlled with just two small analog sticks, so I figured that two large joysticks would be good enough for just about anything. There were a few players that were very good with Grand Prix Legends using joysticks (don't know how many of these went on to wheel and pedals though).

I have a momo racing wheel and pedals, but the right paddle shifter has a switch bounce problem, and it's a pain to setup so I don't use it anymore. I've considered buying a G25, but it costs as much as a pretty descent radio control eletric powered helicopter (these are cool), and the helicopter will come first.

To make up for all my complaining, a video of a RC heli doing some incredible stunts that seem to defy gravity, starting about 25 seconds into the video:

rcheli.wmv

Will you use scripts on the helicopter to make it easier when you control it with your toast, or will you fork out for a proper controller that works?

Quote from Hallen :

Well, he is using a joy stick instead of a wheel in the first place. Simulating a real environment is not a high priority.

It should be emphasised though that he has a Momo and still chooses to use a joystick instead. To my knowledge the Logitech drivers do not have this facility and regardless it has been removed from the game by the Devs for a reason, just like using macros will get you banned from other games I hope they have the same result in LFS.

Quote from JeffR :

I have a momo racing wheel and pedals, but the right paddle shifter has a switch bounce problem, and it's a pain to setup so I don't use it anymore.

Have you tried adjusting the gear shift debounce in LFS to stop this issue?

I dont think it is cheating considering that you are using a flight HID, however I presume that the devs "scavier" Want their simulator to have as much accuracy towards realism as posible under the current limitations of the development process.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Will you use scripts on the helicopter to make it easier when you control it with your toast, or will you fork out for a proper controller that works?

I agree with tristan.^^(althoug it could have been stated more politely)(I love your sarcastic remarks)

If you do choose to continue playing LFS with "two large sticks" you will have to accept the current(and future) changes and adapt to them, since you have chosen to not utilize the recomended controller for the simulator.

Main page

Quote from main page :

LFS S2 is a serious racing simulator. No arcade modes, no steering aids - YOU have to do the driving. It is therefore highly recommended to drive the sim with a steering wheel, because even though you can use keyboard and/or mouse, a wheel is what you use in a real car, so a wheel should be used in a serious racing simulator. Especially when going online, where fast reactions are required.

As it says here the recomended HID is a racing steering wheel. Removing the throttle blip was just a backing for their statement "No arcade modes, no steering aids - YOU have to do the driving."

Edit: This goes to anyone that doesnt have a clutch axis, and are complaining about it, as well.

Quote from ajp71 :

Have you tried adjusting the gear shift debounce in LFS to stop this issue?

Gear shift debounce? What does that do exactly, I still dont know?

Quote from ajp71 :

It should be emphasised though that he has a Momo and still chooses to use a joystick instead. To my knowledge the Logitech drivers do not have this facility.

Click on a custom "command" for a Logitech button, and you'll get a "record" option that lets you program scripts. There are better "wingman" utilities out there, but I've never bothered to use these. At the moment, my Momo has that switch bounce issue.

Quote :

Have you tried adjusting the gear shift debounce in LFS to stop this issue?

Yes, set it to 200ms, and it didn't help. My guess is that this setting only works for true shifters, not buttons (the paddles) assigned to shift function. I removed the shifter from the wheel, I could try putting it back. It's old, even my joystick buttons seem to get bounce issues after about 2 years of usage, but the momo hasn't been used that much.

Quote :

switch bounce

Exactly as it sounds. Keyboard and buttons on game controllers use micro-switches that can bounce when they get old, or if they are cheap. What happenes is the switchs make a connnection, the bounce off and remake a connection. In the old days, bounce time on a cheap switch could be 4 ms, so keyboard makers would adjust the sampling time, typically to 8ms to avoid the bounce issues. I'm not sure what the default debounce time is for the Logitech driver.


In the meantime, I just won't use the auto-cut or auto-blip if I ever go online with LFS.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Will you use scripts on the helicopter to make it easier when you control it with your toast, or will you fork out for a proper controller that works?

Actually there are a lot of "assists" for radio control helicopters. There's a fly bar that looks like a small rotor perpendicular to the main rotor, and it dampens the roll and pitch rate of the helicopter, depending on the size, shape and weight of the fly bar. The fly bar takes care of pitch and roll. For the yaw axis, a computerized heading hold gyro is used to add control inputs to the tail rotor. When heading hold mode is enabled via a switch on the transmitter, the gyro will maintain the current heading, despite any cross wind affects due to flying the helicopter sideways. In heading hold mode, a constant (or zero) rate of yaw while flying in a straight direction at high speed just requires holding the yaw (rudder) axis control input at a fixed position, without requiring any pilot input to compensate for the chainging loads at the tail rotor. Finally there's a mixing curve for throttle versus blade pitch versus tail rotor pitch that is used to keep rotor speed and orientation constant, inspite of blade pitch that can go + or - 13 degrees on an extreme aerobatic type helicopter. The pilot controls the blade pitch to command the heli to fly up or down ("down" is up when heli is inverted).

Quote from legoflamb :

Gear shift debounce? What does that do exactly, I still dont know?

It stops a second button press being registered within the set time period so you don't accidentally shift up multiple gears.

ohhh thanks im going to adjust that now Thanks!

now what dows minumum sleep do?

Quote from JeffR :

Actually there are a lot of "assists" for radio control helicopters. There's a fly bar that looks like a small rotor perpendicular to the main rotor, and it dampens the roll and pitch rate of the helicopter, depending on the size, shape and weight of the fly bar. The fly bar takes care of pitch and roll. For the yaw axis, a computerized heading hold gyro is used to add control inputs to the tail rotor. When heading hold mode is enabled via a switch on the transmitter, the gyro will maintain the current heading, despite any cross wind affects due to flying the helicopter sideways. In heading hold mode, a constant (or zero) rate of yaw while flying in a straight direction at high speed just requires holding the yaw (rudder) axis control input at a fixed position, without requiring any pilot input to compensate for the chainging loads at the tail rotor. Finally there's a mixing curve for throttle versus blade pitch versus tail rotor pitch that is used to keep rotor speed and orientation constant, inspite of blade pitch that can go + or - 13 degrees on an extreme aerobatic type helicopter. The pilot controls the blade pitch to command the heli to fly up or down (which is up when heli is inverted).

Now are those assists implemented on actual helicopters?

If yes, then its not really an aid for RC pilots just another real life controll.(like rudder and alieron trim in planes)/If no, then so be it and use the script to your hearts content if it maks it eaiser to use the "large sticks".

Quote from legoflamb :

Now are those assists implemented on actual helicopters?

No, but for various reasons. They don't have huge thrust to weight ratios (more than 1 obviously, but less than 2), and they're fairly large, so there aren't any sudden movements.

No flybar is needed because a full scale helicopter simply can't roll or pitch that fast. If you watch a movie and see a heli with a flybar, it's a model, not the real thing.

The heading hold gyro isn't needed because real helicopters aren't flown sideways or backwards at high speeds.

Real helicopters aren't flown upside down, so they don't need negative pitch, except a small amount for vertical decent auto-rotates to maintain rotor speed in case of loss engine of power. Normal auto-rotate requires forward speed, like a gyro-copter.

I'm not sure about the auto-mix for throttle / rotor pitch (collective). The classic setup is a motorcycle like throttle control, mounted on a bar that is moved up and down to control the collective pitch. There's a rotor speed indicator, and without a huge thrust to weight ratio, rapid changes in rotor speed aren't going to happen without extreme inputs.

Still in the age of fly by wire systems, I wouldn't be surprised to find some computerized control systems in modern helicopters, even auto-pilots (dial in the GPS setting, turn on the auto-pilot, and the pilot becomes a spectator).

Quote from JeffR :

No, but for various reasons. They don't have huge thrust to weight ratios (more than 1 obviously, but less than 2), and they're fairly large, so there aren't any sudden movements.

No flybar is needed because a full scale helicopter simply can't roll or pitch that fast. If you watch a movie and see a heli with a flybar, it's a model, not the real thing.

The heading hold gyro isn't needed because real helicopters aren't flown sideways or backwards at high speeds.

Real helicopters aren't flown upside down, so they don't need negative pitch, except a small amount for vertical decent auto-rotates to maintain rotor speed in case of loss engine of power. Normal auto-rotate requires forward speed, like a gyro-copter.

I'm not sure about the auto-mix for throttle / rotor pitch (collective). The classic setup is a motorcycle like throttle control, mounted on a bar that is moved up and down to control the collective pitch. There's a rotor speed indicator, and without a huge thrust to weight ratio, rapid changes in rotor speed aren't going to happen without extreme inputs.

Still in the age of fly by wire systems, I wouldn't be surprised to find some computerized control systems in modern helicopters, even auto-pilots (dial in the GPS setting, turn on the auto-pilot, and the pilot becomes a spectator).

What about the red bull air race heli?

Here:
YouTube

Quote from JeffR :

I have a momo racing wheel and pedals, but the right paddle shifter has a switch bounce problem, and it's a pain to setup so I don't use it anymore. I've considered buying a G25, but it costs as much as a pretty descent radio control eletric powered helicopter (these are cool), and the helicopter will come first.

Do you have any other old controllers laying about, maybe an old Microsoft Sidwinder joy stick or something? If so, you can easily fix that shifter bounce problem. I removed a microswitch from an old joystick and soldered it onto the board in my DFP when I ran into that problem. Works like a charm.
It doesn't solve the problem of it being a pain to setup. That is solved with a semi-permenent setup for the wheel and pedals.

Quote from JeffR :

No, but for various reasons. They don't have huge thrust to weight ratios (more than 1 obviously, but less than 2), and they're fairly large, so there aren't any sudden movements.

You would be surprised at some of the sudden movements.

Quote from JeffR :

No flybar is needed because a full scale helicopter simply can't roll or pitch that fast. If you watch a movie and see a heli with a flybar, it's a model, not the real thing.

If I understand what you mean by a flybar, then modern helicopters don't use them because of the number of rotors in the system and because of hydraulics used move the surfaces. But, one the original production helicopters, the Hiller H-23, used a separate wing setup on a bar connected to the control system to affect the rotor attitude.

Quote from JeffR :

The heading hold gyro isn't needed because real helicopters aren't flown sideways or backwards at high speeds.

Most modern helicopters used in the military have some form of heading hold functionality. I know the Blackhawk does. It makes it easier to hold a hover. The Navy uses features like this plus hover altitude hold for hoist operations.

Quote from JeffR :

Real helicopters aren't flown upside down, so they don't need negative pitch, except a small amount for vertical decent auto-rotates to maintain rotor speed in case of loss engine of power. Normal auto-rotate requires forward speed, like a gyro-copter.

I'm not sure about the auto-mix for throttle / rotor pitch (collective). The classic setup is a motorcycle like throttle control, mounted on a bar that is moved up and down to control the collective pitch. There's a rotor speed indicator, and without a huge thrust to weight ratio, rapid changes in rotor speed aren't going to happen without extreme inputs.

All turbine helicopters use an automated fuel control system to manage engine RPM and rotor RPM (both are in vastly different ranges of course, but they must remain constant. Then engine won't wind down until you shut it off unlike what you hear in a lot of movies)
Even the current reciprocating engined Robinson R22 uses a pretty good power management system that greatly relieved the pilot of manual throttle control for the most part.

Quote from JeffR :

Still in the age of fly by wire systems, I wouldn't be surprised to find some computerized control systems in modern helicopters, even auto-pilots (dial in the GPS setting, turn on the auto-pilot, and the pilot becomes a spectator).

Yes, there are. There is a full gamut of stabilization systems as well as fully coupled navigation/autopilot systems.

Is it cheating? Hmmm, well let me put it this way: If I am getting shot at, I want to use all my resources to manage my aircraft and fight better, not to just keep the greasy side of the aircraft pointed down. Automated systems free the pilot to concentrate on what is important.

But, for the purposes of LFS... use a wheel and pedal set

Quote from Hallen :

Huge post ^^

You said what I wanted to say, but couldn't because of lack of information.

Quote from Hallen :

Flybar ... the Hiller H-23, used a separate wing setup on a bar connected to the control system to affect the rotor attitude.

That's a flybar. It's actually two bars connnected to the cyclic control of the main rotor. The winglets at the end of the bars are called "paddles" and they rotate the bars in unison (but opposite direction). Since they apply a force to the cyclic directly, they have to be 90 degrees out of phase with the main rotor, since rotor thrust torque results in a pitch or roll reaction 90 degrees out of phase with the thrust torque due to gyroscopic reaction. The size, and weight of the paddles can be changed to alter the damping factor.

Quote :

For the purposes of LFS... use a wheel and pedal set

For me the issue is taking the games serious enough to do this. Based on my past experience when I did do a lot of hot laps with simulation type game, I've found that I'm within 5% to 7% of the top players, depending on the game, so I'm an OK sim racer but not a really good one.

Quote from JeffR :

For me the issue is taking the games serious enough to do this. Based on my past experience when I did do a lot of hot laps with simulation type game, I've found that I'm within 5% to 7% of the top players, depending on the game, so I'm an OK sim racer but not a really good one.

If you choose not to take it serious enough and choose to keep playing(specially when you have a wheel), then what I said eailer:

Quote from legoflamb :

If you do choose to continue playing LFS with "two large sticks" you will have to accept the current(and future) changes and adapt to them, since you have chosen to not utilize the recomended controller for the simulator.

And the topic is........

Quote :

If you do choose to continue playing LFS with "two large sticks" you will have to accept the current(and future) changes and adapt to them, since you have chosen to not utilize the recomended controller for the simulator.

Well I programmed auto-cut and auto-blip into my controller's driver, and it works just fine. Isn't that adapting?

Quote from JeffR :

Well I programmed auto-cut and auto-blip into my controller's driver, and it works just fine. Isn't that adapting?

Yes it is and you are doing just fine. Aslong as, it works properly, and there are no more complaints.